Go virtue signal to someone who gaf boring

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Anonymous #2 7w

I agree that’s why I would call for government regulation. Capitalist are incentivized to make things more productive with less inputs. Theres this common myth that it’s impossible to have infinite growth on a finite planet but that doesn’t mean endless resource extraction.

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Like I said boring it’s just virtue signaling and name calling.

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What did I say that was incorrect?

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Actually your super epic maga and you’ll never beat the allegations that your not 🤓☝️

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Like I would obviously be down with the name calling and virtue signaling if there was any engagement with anything that I’m actually saying. You’re just typing “lol wrong” in a way that makes you sound intellectual.

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What are you referencing for this just give me a source.

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Anonymous blue__wave 7w

Capitalists are not incentivized to be more productive. they’re incentivized to participate in the enrichment of themselves and their colleagues through inherent exploitation of the working class. that’s literally what we’ve been watching happen for your entire life, but most especially now. capitalism prefers NO regulations; that’s why all climate action policies from Obama-era to Biden’s policies have basically all been knee-capped by this admin except for one that’s actively being targeted.

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lol the amount of resentment. I never said I’m always right I’m just trying to have an actual convo lol

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Anonymous #3 7w

Yeah I know any environmental protection in a liberal country is bad bc maybe someone can undo it or something. But we are becoming more productive why do you think computers no longer are the size of a room? We do use the same amount of inputs to make things.

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Sorry I thought you were gonna signal more my bad

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Anonymous #3 7w

*we dont*

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Anonymous blue__wave 7w

Have you seen how the production of those computers occurs though? How that entire production industry impacts the environment through the lens of it being an isolated sector? From beginning to end: unstable minerals, mining, exploited labor force [to varied degrees], anthropogenic impacts, unstable storage, shipping infrastructure, shoreline impact, marine pollution, etc. The increased productivity could even be argued to be MORE harmful due to increasing demand on our natural resources…

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Ok maybe I need to clarify what I’m claiming I agree that again it’s a serious issue and I would even call for some heavy regulation (serious can mean existential just so we can skip the semantics debate) I thought you were implying something else what do you think our disagreement is?

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Anonymous blue__wave 7w

i should mention my undergrad degree was in biology and particularly focused on freshwater conservation and ecology but granted, the land use and climate affected my lab and my work soooo much so it’s a fun conversation. particularly when involving capitalism and freshwater conservation since i grew up collected bottled water for Flint kids.

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Ok I’m not saying you can’t call it existential I just rather talk about the substance of a policy or ideology rather than talk about how we can use the most fitting semantics I don’t care about that convo. The vast majority of people on here are very left wing and already agree environment policy is serious.

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Also the implication of it is that I don’t care about environmental policy bc I’m not a socialist which is annoying.

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Anonymous #3 7w

Yes that’s how production works that’s not a new thing. My point is we’re using less inputs meaning less resource extraction is needed that doesn’t mean I’m saying all resource extraction is good or is environmentally good.

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Again idk what you think disagreement is?

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Anonymous blue__wave 7w

Increased economic demand and ease of access now would exponentially increase the resource use because, in this same example, we still need those minerals but for WAAAAYYYY more appliances than just a single major computing server room for a community college in 1971. the goddamn vacuums and fridges need computer chips, and they’re WAY less reliable than non-computerized appliances so we need MORE overstock of those natural resources to replace them too. it’s a nightmare when you get into it.

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Anonymous #3 7w

It can lead to more demand but the current trend is that we use emit co2 than we have in the past, We use less steel, renewable energy is becoming a larger share of our electricity. I agree we have large issue and need heavier regulation but the trend isn’t negative.

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Anonymous #3 7w

I would even make the claim that our productively has outpaced demand in terms of us using less raw materials. This has been called dematerialization.

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Anonymous #3 7w

But to my understanding this heavily debated still.

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Anonymous #3 7w

Regardless I would still be more interested in looking into solutions through a liberal capitalist framework, bc there are signs that we can move in a positive direction. I rather do that than go to a completely different economic model that doesn’t have any of these results.

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Anonymous blue__wave 6w

the results we have from the current economic model have been devastating so what makes you think more regulations could work when it hasn’t for our ENTIRE lives 😐

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Anonymous #3 6w

Bc it’s moving in a positive direction for the reasons I already stated. But if the comparison is a made up fantasy ideology there’s no way for me to win that argument.

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Anonymous blue__wave 6w

made up fantasy ideology? no, it is not moving in a positive direction. if you were a climate scientist or a freshwater conservation biologist like myself, you’d understand how fucked we are now that all these EPA regulations have been slashed by the current admin & SCOTUS ruled RoundUp had no responsibility for knowingly distributing cancerous chemicals in their product. Look at what’s happening at Big Bend ffs.

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Anonymous #3 6w

Yes a made fantasy ideology. I obviously disagree with the Trump admin. Our disagreement isn’t if Trump is doing bad things the disagreement is over if liberal capitalism can address environmental issues.

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No I don’t think it’s isolated to Trump but I reject the internet socialist concept of capitalism being the driving cause of fascism.

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Anonymous blue__wave 6w

this admin is the result of capitalism. oligarchy is only thriving under the capitalistic system. they’re not just gonna regulate themselves. the only reason you think it’s made up is because the U.S. napalmed anybody who tried to show that socialist policies work and is way better… because capitalism would be shown to be inhumane and inherently exploitative. 😐

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Anonymous blue__wave 6w

it’s not inherently the cause of fascism historically but this current situation that is occurring within the U.S. is certainly shining a light on how capitalism can quickly slip into fascism once the oligarchs can just walk in through the front doors and just take away the power of the people.

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Anonymous #3 6w

I mean if you rlly want to go over history plenty of socialist regimes fell into nationalist or reactionary movements. Socialist have a history colluding with fascist. I like how we larped having scientific descriptive disagreements but rlly this all just broader ideological disagreements.

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Anonymous #3 6w

If you want to get out the vague speak I would be more than happy to talk specific historical examples.

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Anonymous blue__wave 6w

It’s just been very plain since the bicentennial in the 70s when environmental activism and social change for land preservation in the country was ubiquitous, we’ve completely shifted gears and we’re demolishing Big Bend for corporate interests, bankrupting farmers to develop their fields, one company poisoning entire communities & getting away scot-free (Norfolk Southern in East Palestine, OH), etc. Capitalists are making more money than ever, enjoying the slashing of regulations…

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Anonymous blue__wave 6w

Idk it’s just kinda backwards to believe that with all the evidence of what capitalism has done over the last 50 years in our country to believe it has some sort of solutions… I am out of my depth with geopolitical historical contexts but I do recommend calling in to Jovan Bradley’s stream some time for that conversation in addition to a more stimulating capitalism conversation than I can provide lol.

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Anonymous #3 6w

They didn’t just slip in there’s been a trend in conservative politics of undermining our institutions and trust within our systems. People willingly elected Donald Trump we’ve had capitalism for this country’s entire history and we’ve never had someone this uniquely illiberal.

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Anonymous #3 6w

What evidence? We can attribute everything bad to capitalism bc every country and the vast majority of the world practices capitalism. I feel like it’s super reductive to say it’s capitalism. It’s like saying it’s the fault of people having two eyes. No shit everyone has two eyes there’s obviously more going on than just capitalism.

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Anonymous #3 6w

I like how this debate started with everyone acting like I was anti science and now it’s apparently a convo your out of your depth on bc it was actually political/historical disagreement. I haven’t made any crazy claims it’s very obvious this is an ideological disagreement that everyone has strong opinions but no one is willing to go into the specifics of. This why I called you all dogmatic.

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Anonymous blue__wave 6w

I am still only talking about what I know — climate action and how capitalism benefits from lack of regulation in that specific area. I personally think it’s absurd to assume that corporations are going to let go of their chokehold on climate regulations, but I admire your optimism I suppose. Funny enough, Jovan just went live. Highly recommend a call with someone that might be more your caliber 🤷‍♂️

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Anonymous #3 6w

Why do I have to debate a rando streamer bc now you’re out of your depth on the things you apparently feel super strongly about. Maybe shouldn’t feel strongly about them. Again liberal countries are using less CO2, there’s evidence to suggest productivity is out pacing demand for resource extraction, liberal developed countries are moving further towards service economies, our electricity is increasingly coming from renewables, EVs are becoming a huge industry.

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Anonymous #3 6w

But true Trump bad so liberalims bad ig.

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Anonymous blue__wave 6w

Well he has gone to conferences and been on panels all over the country so I’m going to recommend someone with more knowledge and expertise bc I don’t really have the ego to feel bad about that. Check out his YT videos to get a better understanding of his leftist (not liberal) positions. I figure this is app just entertainment content so might as well check out irl verbal debates too, right? Especially since they’re not exclusive to college students. Just a thought, expand your horizons maybe.

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Anonymous blue__wave 6w

i’m confused what you mean “using less CO2” though. do you mean less fossil fuel [carbon] extraction or do you mean less carbon dioxide gas emissions? out of curiosity of what that means. EVs being a huge industry inherently requires an increase in mining for “rare earth minerals” too, so keep that in mind since that would negate the reduction in fossil fuel extraction, environmentally, as well.

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Anonymous #3 6w

Less co2 emissions sorry I just got off work and that's my second time stating that. I mean yeah it's a car there's always going to be some form of extraction. I would prefer we were investing in reusable things that don't have emissions vs the alternative. Unless we're making the argument that EVs are bad now lol.

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Anonymous #3 6w

No way panels and conferences 🤯. I’m not saying you should feel bad about it lol I’m saying you shouldn’t be confident lol. I’ve seen socialist debate verbally ig I can check him out specifically. My problem is if you agree with him you should be able to articulate why you agree with him and make the argument. Like there are random liberal people online I like but I have my own ideas that I can defend and justify.

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Anonymous blue__wave 6w

Just pointing out that the system has never and will never function with the interests of climate action in mind, let alone at the forefront, considering how basic supply & demand functions in addition to the horrors of today’s planned obsolescence. Its attempts to generate wealth will always come at the cost of the earth. Extraction can be done on an as-needed basis, but that won’t ever happen under this system we’ve lived under for the past 30 years (our entire lives).

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Anonymous #3 6w

If he’s live some weekend I’ll call in.

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Anonymous blue__wave 6w

truthfully i was high as shit last night and don’t have the wherewithal to do all that articulation on an app like this. i agree with his secular humanist views, he has extensive knowledge in debate strategy but also in each subject he chooses to discuss. he knows way more about political isms than i do. i’m confident in my expertise, which is the toll that the current capitalist system has taken on the environment in the last 30 years alone.

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