Anonymous #1 1w

Yeah and it doesn’t help strengthen the “antizionism is not antisemitism” argument. If you have to bring up “Free Palestine” for a Jewish holiday, then maybe it’s not about hating Israel, but hating Jews

19

Anonymous #2 1w

Also free Palestine is not antagonistic to Jewish people, it is in opposition of the state of Israel. Lots of Jewish people are pro Palestine people

8

Anonymous OP 1w

I forgot to include the small chance that they’re actually bots that are trying to make the pro-Palestine movement look antisemitic

17

Anonymous #2 1w

Saying it to Jews when Israel isn’t mentioned does come off as antisemitic and potentially antagonistic though

13

Anonymous #1 1w

I think it’s an example of how while pro-Palestinian activism itself isn’t antisemitic, some people are just dumbasses so are going to do the wrong thing and be antisemitic.

15

Anonymous #1 1w

Being pro Palestine isn’t antisemetic any more than being pro Ukraine isn’t anti Christian. Opposing occupying terrorist states doesn’t mean that you wish for worshipers of their majority religion to be attacked or harmed.

3

Anonymous #2 1w

Most Jews around the world believe that Israel has the right to exist

0

Anonymous #2 1w

But yes I’ll agree it can come off as antagonistic and trying to start shit. I personally wouldn’t say it but I understand the urge

6

Anonymous #2 1w

And comparing Palestine to Ukraine is not the best comparison. The Russia-Ukraine war (2022-) began with a strike from Russia, while the Israel-Hamas War (2023-) began with a strike from Hamas.

-1

Anonymous OP 1w

There are plenty of pro Palestine people who believe that too. Even the most radical pro Palestine folks realistically know that abolishing the state of Israel is an impossibility.

1

Anonymous #2 1w

I mean the pro Palestine movement in the states is mostly centered around the belief that Palestine has a right to exist and not be constantly terrorized and disenfranchised by Israel. The people who truly want to erase Israel are a minority

5

Anonymous #2 1w

I agree that Palestinians have the right to exist peace. So do Israelis.

1

Anonymous OP 1w

Eh I’d disagree, the Israel Hamas war’s latest chapter is popularly marked by October 7th but it had been going on long before that. Ukraine was an innocent neighbor who got attacked with no provocation. Israel is and always has been an occupying force that has constantly and illegally attacked and detained Palestinians arbitrarily. Not to mention their illegal blockades and establishment of an apartheid in the West Bank. Israel is far from innocent here

7

Anonymous OP 1w

Most do not, no. I mean look at the language coming out of the prime ministers office. When people around the world call for the creation and protection of a Palestinian state bibis office calls them terrorist sympathizers. They spend a lot of money destroying civilian infrastructure in Palestine, they most definitely do not want a Palestinian state to succeed at the very least.

5

Anonymous #2 1w

I mean Russia’s conflicts with Ukraine aren’t old either. They’ve been at war since 2014 but conflicts date back to the USSR. Nonetheless Israel-Palestine has lasted much longer

1

Anonymous #1 1w

You mean they aren’t new either right?

1

Anonymous #2 1w

That is just factually incorrect. Putin annexed Crimea in 2014 and from 2014-21, 14K were killed in the Donbas conflict. Yes, there has been tensions between Israel and Hamas before October 7. In fact, the land of Israel has been in conflict for thousands of years. But to say that Ukraine was just attacked with no provocation is far from the truth.

1

Anonymous #2 1w

oops yeah lol

6

Anonymous #2 1w

Bibi is crazy. I don’t condone the sentiment he brings towards Palestinians and if I lived in Israel I would vote for a new government.

1

Anonymous OP 1w

Well I mean they were invaded in 2014 and got invaded again in 2020 or whenever the most recent mainland invasion was. My point is that they are squarely victims here whereas Israel is the instigator in the Palestine Israel conflict

1

Anonymous OP 1w

Yeah that’s the trouble, America and Israel are under the control of far right extremists at the moment, that’s why we both condone each others terrorism

1

Anonymous #2 1w

At least we can agree on that, but it’s not fair to treat Ukraine’s history narrowly while treating Israel’s history expansively. That’s just inconsistent.

1

Anonymous #2 1w

Ukraine is the victim of an illegal invasion, but like Israel, it also has a long, complex history.

1

Anonymous OP 1w

Both are complex for sure, didn’t mean to understate that. I’m just saying that October 7th was a rebuttal to Israeli aggression in Gaza whereas the most recent invasion of Ukraine was another act of aggression against a country that had only been defending itself prior to the action.

2

Anonymous #2 1w

A rebuttal can still be aggression, and your Ukraine framing uses a different moral rule. Ukraine has also used force; they were in an armed conflict from 14-21 which caused civilian harm, yet no one says that Russia’s invasion was a rebuttal. If “prior aggression” makes attacks on civilians a rebuttal, would that logic apply anywhere else? Would terror attacks worldwide become “contextual resistance?”

1

Anonymous OP 1w

My point is that Ukrainians weren’t going and fucking around in mainland Russia kidnapping random people and torturing them. All of their military action revolves around trying to just get Russia off Ukrainian land. Israel on the other hand was doing a bunch of illegal shit in Palestine before the October 7th attack.

1

Anonymous #2 1w

Ukraines actions are purely defensive, Israel was engaging in offensive oppression and violence when they got attacked on Oct 7th

1

Anonymous #2 1w

You’re proving my point. Ukraine’s actions remain defensive because they target military threats, not civilians. Hamas didn’t ‘rebut’ Israeli policy, it deliberately murdered civilians and took hostages. State misconduct does not turn terrorism into defense. If it did, then any atrocity anywhere could be justified by citing prior injustice. That’s not a standard applied to Ukraine, and it can’t be one applied here.

1

Anonymous OP 1w

You have to consider how vastly different the environment in Gaza is as opposed to Ukraine. Ukraine is a sovereign nation with a military that can import whatever weapons or supplies it pleases. They have military alliances with powerful nations. Having some amount of modern military might allows them to strike military targets of another modern military.

1

Anonymous #2 1w

Now look at Gaza. It is an open air prison controlled by Israel. They control what comes in, they extract wealth from Palestinian farms, they control policing inside the territory. Palestine has few powerful allies and none who will contribute arms. There is no meaningful Palestinian military. They have no ability to strike Israeli military targets, Israel made sure of that. As a result they have no other means to resist oppression and genocide.

1

Anonymous #2 1w

Israel created the conditions to make people so desperate for freedom, sovereignty, and safety that they resort to anything that will earn them a bargaining chip. This is by Israeli design; now Israel gets to cast Palestinians as monsters who resort to terrorism because they’re just bad inhuman people. We have to look deeper

1

Anonymous #2 1w

Gaza’s conditions don’t force the murder of civilians; that was a strategic choice made by Hamas. Many oppressed groups have resisted without massacring families or taking hostages. Acknowledging that choice isn’t dehumanizing Palestinians, but it’s recognizing that actors still make decisions. If ‘no other means’ justified civilian slaughter, then civilian protection would collapse everywhere. That standard isn’t applied to Ukraine, and it can’t be applied here.

1

Anonymous #2 1w

This is the last thing I’m gonna say tonight since I have a long day tomorrow, but I’m down to continue what I hope will be a respectful discussion from here on out.

5

Anonymous OP 1w

I think it does. What other choices does Hamas have? They can tolerate the status quo which is untenable, they can try to make peace diplomatically which hasn’t worked because Israel refuses to honor their sovereignty, or they can strike military targets, which is technologically impossible. They’ve tried sit ins and hunger strikes, that doesn’t work either.

1

Anonymous #2 1w

Also let’s apply the same standards of more judgement to both sides here; Israel has never shied away from taking hostages and murdering civilians. They’ve actually done much more of that than Hamas has. Western media likes to refer to Palestinian hostages as prisoners but make no mistake, many are detained arbitrarily without any charge and are held indefinitely. They include women and children and they are often tortured and raped. Those are hostages.

1

Anonymous #2 1w

And I don’t think I need to go into detail about Israel murdering civilians, aid workers, uniformed medics… etc. That’s been pretty widely documented

1

Anonymous #2 1w

Now in contrast, Russia murders civilians regardless of having the ability to take other action. They can chose to use their technological prowess to strike military targets but they choose to attack civilians to inflict maximum pain. That’s quite different from the actions of Hamas.

1

Anonymous #2 1w

But yeah let me know your thoughts on this, I appreciate the conversation 🙏

1