Anonymous #1 4w

No they don’t. They just CLAIM to believe it. But their internal logic is inconsistent.

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Anonymous mushy.the.mushroom 4w

No mushy, they do actually believe it. Until you understand that and can approach the argument you won’t get anywhere

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Anonymous #1 4w

Do you believe it?

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Anonymous mushy.the.mushroom 4w

My personal belief doesn’t matter because it’s a moral issue, and governments should not have the power to issue laws regarding morality (in my opinion). And thus, should not restrict access to them. That’s a choice for the individual and their healthcare provider, not lawmakers

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Anonymous #1 4w

Okay so you do.

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Anonymous #1 4w

Good for you, for being generally correct. But it’s pretty clear you DO seem to believe that you believe it’s murder. And you don’t. Not actually.

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Anonymous #1 4w

That first line sounded snarky but it wasn’t. It is actually good for you.

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Anonymous mushy.the.mushroom 4w

If it’s murder, we already accept there are legally excusable murders. No reason we can’t concede abortions are one of them If it’s not, yippee we didn’t allow our government to make that decision! It’s a win all around

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Anonymous #1 4w

Okay so you’re desperately trying to avoid having this conversation.

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Anonymous mushy.the.mushroom 4w

Because my opinion doesn’t matter. What does matter is your inability to acknowledge a pro-life persons actual argument, which is exactly why we haven’t had a resolution to the abortion debate. Nobody wants to accept people can have a different opinion to them. You rationalize it by saying they’re lying to themselves bc your opinion is always ultimate truth. When has anyone responded positively to that attitude? Ever.

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Anonymous mushy.the.mushroom 4w

Doesn’t matter if it’s fact or not. It simply doesn’t. When has anyone responded positively and with willingness to change to someone who acts like their views are the only correct ones?

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Anonymous #1 4w

Okay well if you’re not gonna present the fucking argument for me to engage with then what’s the point of you even being here? Find someone pro life, I’ll show you what I mean. If not, like homie, fuck out my face please. This is not a productive or useful conversation.

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Anonymous #1 4w

You being like “your view of the pro life argument is wrong and you refuse to engage with it” “Well make a pro life argument” “WHAT I BEIEVE DOESNT MATTER BUT YOU NEED TO FACE RHE FACTS-“ Like bro

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Anonymous mushy.the.mushroom 4w

Because that’s not the point of my comment? My point in the comment is to address your foundational argumentative skills and the importance of rhetoric in debate

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Anonymous mushy.the.mushroom 4w

It is a very useful conversation if you care enough to take it to heart. Which apparently you don’t, bc your ego is more important than eliciting change. You don’t share your beliefs to inspire, you’re sharing them to feel better about yourself and signal your stance is the “good” one with people who already agree with you

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Anonymous #1 4w

Then you’ve failed. Because you don’t even know WHY I believe what I believe.

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Anonymous #1 4w

Because you refuse to engage with my argument beyond your own assumptions, and then when I try to explain further you turn into a brick wall. Was the point of your comment just to hear yourself talk? That’s kinda what it feels like, because I’m tryna have a convo about it and you’re the one refusing.

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Anonymous mushy.the.mushroom 4w

I don’t know why you believe it’s impossible for someone to genuinely believe abortion is murder? Because that’s my stance here. That’s the stance I’m asking you to engage in right now. Not whether it is or isn’t. But that you can comprehend people truly, whole heartedly believe that it is

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Anonymous #1 4w

I don’t believe it’s impossible I just don’t believe many, or really any of them do. I have a reason for this. One I’ve tried to explain, to no avail, because you’re a brick wall.

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Anonymous #1 4w

Maybe instead of rejecting what I believe outright, and refusing to engage in any explanation, you can put down your ego for a second and ask me WHY

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Anonymous mushy.the.mushroom 4w

No you’re trying to strawman by changing the argument to one easier for you to win so you never have to approach the actual issue I raised. Why do you believe none of them are truthful in their belief to the claim? Is it bc the logic isn’t one you agree with? It’s often based in a religion you don’t have faith in I’m also not rejecting it. I’m saying it’s a harmful approach to the issue

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Anonymous #1 4w

How do you know it’s a strawman if you don’t even know why I believe what I believe? Again, brick wall. You don’t wanna talk or learn anything about my beliefs, you’ve come to the conclusion they’re wrong with no extra info and are ignoring any attempts I make to inform you about my viewpoint more.

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Anonymous #1 4w

“I’m not rejecting it I’m just refusing to hear you out and also rejecting it” …. Okay.

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Anonymous mushy.the.mushroom 4w

I asked you 3 questions about your beliefs in my last comment that you ignored. I do care. But you keep trying to make it about mine instead

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Anonymous #1 4w

Well to be fair most of your comments have been very, uh.. wordy? Listen man I’m one to talk but you could stand to break down your comments to be a bit more succinct.

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Anonymous #1 4w

But hold on ig.

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Anonymous #1 4w

I believe very few are truthful in their claims because they all have failed a fundamental hypothetical that engages with the perceived value of a human life. That’s the big one.

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Anonymous mushy.the.mushroom 4w

Really? So it’s my fault you don’t read my comments to completion before arguing? It’s my fault now you can’t even listen to me before you respond? Fighting a literal ghost rn bc the opposition doesn’t even exist

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Anonymous #1 4w

🙄

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Anonymous #1 4w

Fuckin, actually yeah. When people don’t read my whole fucking novels I don’t get pissed off I just restate. Because I’m very wordy, and there’s a lot that could be cut from my comments that doesn’t help get my point across. Yeah if you talk in a way that makes people not want to hang on your words in an argument, it’s your fucking fault.

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Anonymous mushy.the.mushroom 4w

They do. Their perception is life is inherently valuable, and value doesn’t come from birth or ability to self sustain. And their definition of life has a threshold that begins before yours. Some may not be able to argue it well, but it’s the fundamentals of what they think (or are told to think)

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Anonymous mushy.the.mushroom 4w

…so you speak to hear yourself talk and assume others do too…? Instead of seeing value in the claims they use to support their argument? Ok yeah that really makes me believe you engage in good faith 🫩

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Anonymous #1 4w

Okay man I hate this conversation and you just keep saying “actually that’s not true tho” because you CLEARLY have some vested perspective in this issue that you refuse to share out of… cowardice? Ig? Idk. I’m dipping. If you want to talk, we can talk. If you want to just disagree with me with no extra conversation, we didn’t need to take this much time to do that. Peace out Girl Scout.

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Anonymous mushy.the.mushroom 4w

Leaving the argument when you don’t have a rebuttal. Classic I’m not a coward for not letting you change the topic. I’m not here for you to practice your pro-choice stance because I am pro choice. There’s no argument to be won there because we agree. The problem is how you engage with people who aren’t pro-choice and how it’s damaging to actual resolution to the issue. Which you’ve ignored over and over to avoid that argument. We finally have it and you run off

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Anonymous #1 4w

Rebuttal for what? You disagreeing with me, without even knowing why?

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Anonymous #1 4w

In relatively short terms, what was the argument in your last comment that I fuckin ignored? Wouldn’t wanna be like you.

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Anonymous mushy.the.mushroom 4w

I do know why. I get it’s hard, but debates regarding moral value need to be addressed with empathy and a willingness to understand. When you don’t give people that they react with anger and defensiveness, digging their heels into the ground and pushes them to hold on even tighter to their stance. It sucks, but it’s the truth. You don’t deprogram cult members by telling them they’re stupid for believing their cult leader, you empathize with the beliefs to slowly break them down and rebuild them

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Anonymous #1 4w

Okay so let’s HAVE that debate please

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Anonymous #1 4w

I’m not trying to deprogram a cult tho. Maybe that’s your bit. Lemme know how it goes, seems pretty fucking fruitless.

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Anonymous #1 4w

You’re like assuming we have the same fundamental goal it’s so frustrating, and frankly, very self centered.

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Anonymous mushy.the.mushroom 4w

Is your goal not to get pro-life individuals to support pro-choice laws?

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Anonymous mushy.the.mushroom 4w

If not you’re fucking doing it wrong dude

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Anonymous #1 4w

In a sense? But not the person I’m arguing with. My goal is typically for people listening or watching the argument who might otherwise be undecided or on the fence or like, maybe already in the process of changing their views, to have that extra push of seeing the inconsistency from the outside. I do this because I know it works. This is partly how I’ve helped convert ACTUAL neonazis from where I grew up into progressives

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Anonymous #1 4w

But only helped, because you can’t convince them outright in any way. Even if you’re nice. They still dig their heels. The process has to begin naturally first .

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Anonymous mushy.the.mushroom 4w

That’s an important part of arguing too, but even then, will undecided people want to agree with you when you come off as an ass bc your argument isn’t even with the persons belief, but an automatic assumption they’re wrong? You may catch a few like minded people, but not the vast majority.

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Anonymous mushy.the.mushroom 4w

You don’t really have to even change their minds of the foundations of their argument. Abortion is murder? Cool we allow murders in self defense, and is the life of the mother due to fetal issues not self defense? Is protecting a woman from being legally tied to an abusive partner through coparenting not self defense? Doesn’t the government have a responsibility to enshrine those protections? Stuff like that instead of “no you don’t actually believe it’s murder let me tell you about yourself”

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