Anonymous #2 20w

That’s where history comes in, I’d tell you to start with the two spirit of indigenous communities and the Hijra of India The practicing of gender nonconformity, has a long-standing historical basis, people adhering to other gender norms is a very human trait

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Anonymous #2 20w

Within science I’d show you frogs, who switch gender upon environmental factors, and critters like slugs who hold both male and female genitalia, their sex act is fighting with their penis’s and the loser gets pregnant (just a fun fact)

21

Anonymous OP 20w

I’m talking about specifically human beings (who are not capable of switching sex at will). I am also asking about biological sex, a physical trait, not gender, a social trait. While gender and sex are related the two are nevertheless distinct from each other.

-2

Anonymous #2 20w

So let me rephrase. Does a human undergoing a sex change, with sex referring to chromosomal makeup and the resulting physical traits, alter the sex they were biologically born with?

-2

Anonymous #2 20w

Nope, I agree with you to an extent, there will always be the facts of biology, but that also is in benefit of trans people as hormones also take part in their experience, I cannot deny biology, but another part of our biology included outside stimuli In this case how a person fits into their given social culture As a woman I know if I was born a man, I would be miserable If a person is born male, but feels themselves when they’re treated as a woman culturally- that is the distinction

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Anonymous OP 20w

Because a need to belong and seek comfort is a also a biological trait, why wouldn’t it make sense for a person to learn what they like to look like and occasionally that includes a want to not just possess feminine traits but to be that gender (and vice versa female to male) the original biology is still fact, but so is their gender experience

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Anonymous #2 20w

This man not answer you but for me, Since often the argument is trans people aren’t real bc there are “only two sexes” That simply doesn’t work for me because it isn’t true A male frog is a male frog until there aren’t enough females and it changes A woman is unhappy amongst women but feels true comfort amongst men, then they realize they want to be seen as a man

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Anonymous OP 20w

Wait are you saying a sex change can’t alter biological sex (is that what your initial “Nope” means?) sorry I’m just a bit confused since some of your response kinda veers off into a different conversation

-1

Anonymous #2 20w

What’s your position on transgender people?

12

Anonymous OP 20w

While these examples are very different I don’t feel that they’re incomparable as in the end, I love my male friends and being around them but I’ve no desire to be a man, so why would I argue with someone who wants that? I feel strongly I’m what I am, and I believe other people also know what they are

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Anonymous #2 20w

No it was very on topic, Sex and gender are different entirely Sex is chromosomes Gender is a societal cultural experience Both rooted in biology they are connected in someways but not interchangeable

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Anonymous #3 20w

Like what do I think about them in general or do you want my opinions on sports and stuff?

-2

Anonymous #2 20w

Isn’t that the same thing?

11

Anonymous OP 20w

Sorry I sent my reply before your messages could send.

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Anonymous #2 20w

Gotchu bro🫶🏻

4

Anonymous OP 20w

One would be a general response on my part the other would get more into specifics. I just want to know which 3 would prefer so I don’t waste their time with too many of my opinions

5

Anonymous #2 20w

Yall attach biologically to every fucking thing. wtf is “biologically born with”…just say born with dawg.

4

Anonymous themind._.ofhueyfreeman25 20w

Because this conversation requires nuance for respectful engagement where everyone feels heard Did you have relevant question?

3

Anonymous OP 20w

I feel like biological isn’t rlly needed in these discussions tho. Trans ppl don’t think they can change their sex and accept that they’re either male or female, so it’s kind of redundant imo to always say “biological male” or “biological female”. Just say male or female, they’re already biological terms. Especially because biology has nothing to do with trans ppl. Gender itself is a social construct, and changes from society to society and century to century.

12

Anonymous OP 20w

I’m a biology student, and every single bio professor and biologist ik all state that gender and sex are complex and completely different. Two different forms of science. Personally, I feel like when ppl throw “biological” in front of whatever sex or gender it’s just an attempt to invalidate those ppl, despite biology disagreeing with them. As ur post says, intersex is a thing and intersex ppl don’t fit into the binary because even sex isn’t binary.

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Anonymous themind._.ofhueyfreeman25 20w

Wdym by yall? Who are you grouping me with?

1

Anonymous #2 20w

Yall, as in general. No specific group

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Anonymous themind._.ofhueyfreeman25 20w

Tbh in that case I chose to use the words I did because generally the people I meet need words reiterated because they don’t understand any of terminology in general

1

The main point is that there is no rule book (like 2 sexes only) on the traits people possess, it’s very varied in sex and in gender

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Anonymous #2 20w

I guess both

1

By definition sex isn’t binary if there’s more than 2 variations

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Comment Deleted

0

If someone possesses male chromosomes but exhibits female characteristics, what are they?

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Anonymous #8 20w

YY cannot exist! All living humans must have a X chromosome as it carries essential genes.

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Anonymous #10 20w

Wait you are right

8

Anonymous #8 20w

it’s all good, we all make mistakes :)

3

Comment Deleted

0

You are just so uneducated and expressing opinions on things you know nothing about. Intersex people can literally have both male genitalia and female genitalia (for example, both a penis and ovaries). Yet, you are here talking out of your imagination that “traits” are either male or female. Sit down, listen, and learn!

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Anonymous themind._.ofhueyfreeman25 20w

The whole point of this was to show the difference between sex and gender and you did that beyond well - so imma consider my phrasing on the subject thank you

1

So you understand what male characteristics are but not female characteristics?

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Comment Deleted

0

Define sex and gender. Define the words.

1

Comment Deleted

0

I didn’t ask for a paraphrase or for your opinion on if they’re the same thing or not. I said to define them. Try again.

9

No googles free So sex like the initial post states applies to more than 2 chromosome variations Gender is a social construct that differs culturally I a woman can have feminine and masculine traits but if I were to desire to be perceived as a man and I take the steps to be seen as a man I am still fulfilling biological needs such as to be accepted and feel comfortable in my skin

7

Anonymous #14 20w

The post just says there’s more than two genders which is true

20

I didn’t ask you to cry about things that you imagine. Define the words

7

Anonymous OP 20w

No no, I didn’t have an issue with u lol. I’m just stating my opinion and it honestly probably came off harsh. That’s my bad. And even then, I was replying to #2. U obviously know what I mean and support the science.

6

What do u think female characteristics are bud?

6

No one is arguing u can change ur sex lmfao. Sex and gender are not the same and gender is just how u choose to express urself based on societal norms. Most trans woman wouldn’t get bottom surgery(which btw they don’t get it cut off pls do ur research)to fit societal norms…

6

Do men wear skirts, heels, and makeup?

4

Way to change the subject? Nobody ever said anything about “cutting off your dick”, and yet here you are: screaming into the Internet asking people about it. If you feel your gender does not match your sex assigned at birth, you could have just said that, and we can all be there for you, but instead you just chose to be a foul human being. Gurl, bye!

12

Anonymous #3 20w

I don’t have anything against transgender people. I’ll admit I can’t fully empathize with them since I’ve always felt comfortable with my gender and sex (male), but regardless, I try to treat them with the same basic respect as anyone else. Regarding sports, idk 🤷. My father had a suggestion of just giving a handicap like in golf so I usually default to that as a solution, but I’m not sure how that would look in practice. Regarding bathrooms, they should just make more unisex bathrooms available

3

Anonymous #2 20w

I can understand why some people are more conservative when it comes to gender-related issues. Probably because I was raised in a more right-leaning and traditional environment. But at the same time, I think it’s not a big ask to have a preferred way of reference, so even though I find it a bit awkward at times I try to use people’s preferred gender identity.

1

Anonymous #2 20w

Unless someone yells at me when I misgender them upon meeting them for the first time (has happened). Then I don’t like them

1

Anonymous themind._.ofhueyfreeman25 20w

The Scottish certainly do

1

Its an exception that needs to be acknowledged as it affects medical care outcomes, they can face discrimination by ppl like you that believe they don’t matter or treat them poorly for not fitting perfectly into the man or woman category. They are still human and should be treated with dignity and respect,

1

Anonymous #15 20w

Additionally ppl are bringing trans people into this, talking about modes of transitioning including surgeries on the genitalia. Do you know who is having surgeries on their genitalia as soon as days after birth? Intersex children! Sometimes the sex that the dr or parents choose to “fix” the child into doesn’t match with later development or their internal identity, and even in later surgeries these children aren’t given informed consent on what is going on with them

2

Anonymous #13 20w

> “trying to get surgery because you don’t feel like your gender will always be weird to me” good thing it isn’t your surgery > “if you’re trying to indoctrinate children into transitioning before turning 18” Yet to see any evidence of this being a widespread trend > “people who want to delete themselves because they were fed nonsense by pro trans pedos” Detransition rates are incredibly low, and “pro trans pedos” are you being scared by things that don’t exist in any meaningful way

10

Anonymous #16 20w

1 yeah but its my fucking tax dollars so technically its everyone’s surgery depending on where you live. 2 it doesnt have to be a widespread thing for it to be a problem. 3 then what is the big fucking emphasis on trans topics to little children if you arent fucking pedophiles? its gotten worse over the years you sick freaks.

-4

Anonymous #13 20w

Your tax dollars don’t fund surgeries if this kind, surgeries are only available for adults, gender dysphoria is literally feeling disalignment between one’s sex and gender that can lead to suicidal ideation that is often relieved (in children through social transition/ affirmation they are even experiencing gender dysphoria) in (adults through hormonal+)

16

But they aren’t, so an inbetween has always existed

8

Anonymous #13 20w

Blaming the suicide rate on post-transition regret when the data shows the opposite is an interesting choice. I also think it's crazy to not consider that the discrimination and otherization of trans people could be a factor. Honestly using a group's suicide rate against them is just gross in general.

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Anonymous #18 20w

Its gender dysphoria 🤷‍♂️ have fun

-1

Anonymous #13 20w

moral panic over trans people. are you mad at the church for enabling pedophilia? Btw, it is statistically less likely for a trans person to be a pedophile. They are actually more likely to be the victims of pedophilia.

6

Anonymous #6 20w

Nice deflection, but you're missing the point. I'm not mad, I just think it's fucking gross. That's called an opinion. Hope this helps.

-2

Anonymous #13 20w

You think the church is gross? Or pedophilia? wdym

3

Anonymous #6 20w

Idk why church is brought up. Im not religious. Pedophiles and ladybody trans cross dressing weirdos who indoctrinate children are the gross fucks im referring to.

-2

Anonymous #13 20w

https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZP8sTAxNx/ watch this video

1

Anonymous #17 20w

Willful ignorance, you do you

6

Anonymous #17 20w

Watch this video- https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZP8sTAxNx/

1

Anonymous #17 20w

then you’ll 💀 wrong lmao

1

Anonymous #13 20w

Okay? Trans people will be the first to tell you they gave gender dysphoria lmao. Transitioning is proven to be effective in alleviating the symptoms.

1

Anonymous #18 20w

It’s a mental illness

-1

Anonymous #13 20w

Do they deserve to suffer because of that? Shouldn't we support the leading treatment?

1

Anonymous #18 20w

Yeah you can mutilate yourself and cross dress after you turn 18. Got no problem with that. Just keep to yourself.

-2

Anonymous #13 20w

18 for irreversible/semi-reversable changes is a respectable position. "Just keep to yourself" sounds pretty intolerant though. They deserve every right to exist publicly and be open about who they are. If you judge that as "making it their whole personality" or "shoving it down your throat" that's on you

9

Anonymous #18 20w

When I say keep to yourself I mean everyone equally. You're moving the goalposts to make it sound like an attack on public existence. Everyone has the right to exist, but no one has a right to forced validation. And I really don't care about being judged by the online morality police bc we're clearly never going to agree

-1

Anonymous #13 20w

You are literally forcing us to validate you being a bigot online. What hypocrisy coming from you saying that “no one has a right to forced validation”. It’s OK not to agree. Just know that your opinion is not based on scientific facts and ours is. And us calling you an ignorant bigot will never result in you experiencing physical violence. But your rhetoric on the other hand, causes real deaths of trans people everyday.

7

Anonymous #13 20w

You aren’t minding your business like you want other people to

6

Anonymous #11 20w

My rhetoric is not causing deaths 🤣 what a ridiculous statement

-2

Anonymous #13 20w

the rhetoric ur using does and you are perpetuating it

3

Anonymous #13 20w

how about just mind your own business like you are saying other people should & there wouldn’t be an issue

3

Anonymous #6 20w

How many trans people died because of my words online today? Can you count them? What a fucking stupid thing to say lmao

0

Anonymous #13 20w

You are just showing more of your ignorance by saying that. Your factually incorrect comments demonizes trans people and fans up existing anti-trans emotions already held by others, who will in turn continue to spread misinformation (you being one), and eventually one of the more emotionally unstable people will be causing bodily harm to a trans person who’s simply minding their own business.

5

Anonymous #13 20w

yeah moral panic over trans people does contribute to violence against them. Its not that shocking

0

Anonymous #11 20w

You're just inventing a fake causal link between an anonymous comment thread and actual violent crimes because you can't handle a basic disagreement. People have a right to exist, sure, but no one has a right to forced validation. Attributing literal blood to my hands for saying that is ridiculous.

-1

Anonymous #6 20w

Describing a disagreement about forced validation as a "moral panic that causes bodily harm" is delusional. If your entire stance relies on a hypothetical chain reaction where a random comment triggers real world violence, your argument has zero structural integrity

-1

Anonymous #13 20w

Because deep down, people chose violence when they simply cannot reconcile what is absolutely natural in the world with what they were told to detest growing up. The very existence of trans people just living their lives (not even as you described “indoctrinating others”, especially when you are the person who was indoctrinated with hate and now trying to spread your misinformation) reminds them daily of that cognitive dissonance, which is also what brings you here to this forum.

5

Anonymous #13 20w

One of your logical fallacies is that you are not defining “validation” or a forced version of it thereof. What is your definition of an act of validation? And how is that different from what you are asking others do to you?

4

Anonymous #11 20w

That is an incredible amount of text just to avoid defending your original point. You claimed my words cause literal deaths. When called out on how massive of a leap that is, you doubled down by inventing a fictional narrative where I am "indoctrinated with hate" to justify your stance. No amount of generic internet psychobabble is going to magically turn a disagreement about forced validation into a violent crime.

-1

Anonymous #13 20w

Empirical studies from civil rights organizations, criminologists, and sociologists establish a direct link between the rise of anti-transgender rhetoric, restrictive legislation, and real-world violence.

8

Anonymous #13 20w

why are you so committed to this point of view? Like genuinely why are you arguing about this

5

Anonymous #13 20w

And that’s where you are wrong. Ideas are spread because of people’s interactions with other people and the words they use. Just because you will not be doing physical harm to a trans person does not mean the ideas you spread and the attitude you demonstrate in front of others will not take effect onto other people’s opinions and actions. You are not single-handedly causing violence, but you sure participate in that fermentation process, and demonstrably gladly and willingly participating in it.

3

Anonymous #6 20w

because you two think you sound smart but cant realize that normal thinking people still look at you with disgust even though we dont mean any harm. Just a bunch of confused mentally ill cross dressers. Completely fine but don’t be surprised on how revolting it all is. Go fuck yourself. Hope this helps!

-1

Anonymous #13 20w

You’re just arguing bc you want to spend all your energy being judgemental rather than minding your own business

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Anonymous #6 20w

I have free will. Go fuck yourself.

-2

Anonymous #13 20w

But you clearly do “mean harm” in various ways. You accuse people of “indoctrinating others” with a lack of evidence of trans people doing so. You accuse people of “asking for forced validation” without being able to give a definition of what even constitutes as “validation”. How is calling someone “mentally ill” not “to mean harm” when they are not ill? How is equating “being trans” with “cross-dressing” not “to mean harm”?

8

Anonymous #13 20w

You are contributing to discrimination against people i love & your POV is not a respectable one

6

Anonymous #13 20w

And please don’t use language like “go f*ck yourself” when you are unable to make a sound argument. We have treated you with nothing but respect and some intellectual discussions. You are escalating it into something else that we do not want a part of by using language like that. Have a nice life.

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Anonymous #13 20w

you’re using your free will in a really bullheaded way. people aren’t going to be nice to someone who is mean

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Anonymous #13 20w

Bro crying at people that are smarter than you is just sad But one thing about people that deny as hard as you, is they’re generally denying something in themselves

8

Anonymous #13 20w

Wow that one really hurt your feelings

7

Anonymous #2 20w

That’s my point.

1