Anonymous #2 1w

But only one side is still fighting & killing people none stop.

13

Anonymous OP 1w

nah they both are hamas just doesn’t have the weapons to reach israeli civilians right now so they’re killing soldiers

-3

Anonymous #2 1w

I don’t see anything saying Israeli soldiers are still being killed by Hamas only that Palestinians are still being killed by Israel daily

19

Anonymous OP 1w

put a screenshot for you, its in most articles but you have to read closely to see it

-1

Anonymous #2 1w

they also have injured soldiers but that doesn’t get reported on

-1

Anonymous #2 1w

Got so Isreal killed 556 people mainly civilians and a few journalists during a ceasefire & Hamas might of killed 4 soldiers. Not to mention Israel announcing it will build more illegal settlements in the West Bank.

11

Anonymous OP 1w

man all i am saying is both governments fucking suck

1

Anonymous #2 1w

I’m not denying it but it definitely seems like one is much worse & there’s no real comparison.

2

Anonymous #2 1w

both governments also know they are prob going to lose power if the ceasefire actually works

-1

Anonymous OP 1w

one has bigger bombs and an iron dome so it has less casualties

1

Anonymous #2 1w

I mean Hamas has outlined giving up power in the ceasefire agreement but that’s only if Israel ends the occupation in Gaza which Israel would never do assuming America continues to fully support all of their actions

5

Anonymous #2 1w

Yeah one has the fully unwavering support of the worlds largest & strongest military so they know they can do whatever the want

6

Anonymous OP 1w

Hamas has no intention of actually giving up power, they’re retaking it in the Hamas-controlled parts of Gaza right now (very violently). And Israel doesn’t want to end the occupation in Gaza in part bc some extremists want to colonize it but more so because they think if they leave Hamas will just attack them again (which it has said it would). Then again Hamas wouldn’t have the support it has if Israel weren’t so brutal in the Gaza strip. It’s an endless depressing cycle

1

Anonymous OP 1w

sort of, the US-Israel relationship is more complex than that but yeah the US has enabled plenty of horrors. on the other side Hamas has Iran’s backing and thinks it is fighting a holy war so it has divine authority to do whatever it wants

1

Anonymous #2 1w

Idk about that. Unless Israel actually follows up on their end of the agreement you can’t say for sure the Hamas will attack again. Like your argument can’t be well we can’t end the apartheid or genocide because if we do Hamas will attack again. Crazy that no one ever goes maybe fully ended the apartheid & genocide will keep them from wanting to attack Insane I know. And if they still attack then you go back to doing what you’ve been doing this entire time & nothing really changes but at least

1

Anonymous OP 1w

You made a logical effort. Not to mention again what’s happening in the West Bank which isn’t even Hamas ran so that Hamas excuse doesn’t even make snese

1

Anonymous OP 1w

No but the thing is Hamas specifically doesn’t want the suffering of Palestinians to end, it wants Israel to be destroyed and it will not stop attacking until Israel is destroyed. Israel does not want to be destroyed so they think oppressing Palestinians is necessary to control Hamas. This is, like I said, an endless depressing cycle and the same reason why all the other ceasefires since 2005 have failed

1

Anonymous OP 1w

Hamas does exist in the West Bank but settler terrorism in the West Bank is largely purely motivated by religious extremism and I think it’s evil

1

Anonymous #2 1w

(Settler terrorism means terrorism committed by Israeli settlers)

1

Anonymous #2 1w

Also we can’t compare Iran backing Hamas to the U.S. backing Israel. Also let’s be really Israel benefits from having Iran as an adversary

6

Anonymous #2 1w

I didn’t say Hamas doesn’t exist in the West Bank. I said the West Bank isn’t Hamas ran. Also I’m familiar with Settler terrorism which is protected & assisted by the IDF.

4

Anonymous OP 1w

How do you think Israel benefits from Iran as an adversary?

1

Anonymous OP 1w

Yes it is and it is terrible

1

Anonymous OP 1w

all i can say is if you want to understand the conflict the only way is to read what Hamas itself says are its goals and what methods it thinks are appropriate

1

Anonymous #2 1w

Is Hamas part of their government? I’m not well-versed sorry

1

Anonymous #4 1w

Yes Hamas is a political party that is the government of Gaza. It was elected democratically along with the Fatah party in 2004 and then it staged a coup in 2007 and killed or kicked out all of Fatah. it has been in charge with no elections since

1

Anonymous #4 1w

Not in the West Bank but that doesn’t stop Israel from continuing violence & breaking international law

1

Anonymous OP 1w

i mean yeah but the West Bank is a whole different political situation and dynamic. if you want to talk about the nuances of that one too we can but as with Gaza nuances don’t make what’s happening okay they just explain why it happened and how it came to be

1

Anonymous #2 1w

The funding of Hamas which Bibi himself supported helps delegitimize negotiations which helps keep a Palestinian state from being recognized. Also when Obama did the de nuclearzation deal it was nothing but beneficial for Israel’s as far as decreasing the chance of attacks from Iran or Iran funding proxies yet Bibi hated it because the funding of Hamas is important as well as the need for a hostile advisory to justify their funding & genocide. Outside of a complete regime change of Iran

1

Anonymous #2 1w

Yeah I’m familiar with Hamas statements, their old charter their new charter, plus the negotiations which is why I believe ending the genocide & apartheid makes the most sense assuming Israel genuinely wants peace & not expansion. I don’t see Israel a unique when compared to other oppressors throughout history

1

Anonymous #2 1w

Yeah obviously one doesn’t justify the other but I’m saying if Hamas is the excuse for why Israel is doing what it’s doing then that doesn’t explain it’s actions in the West Bank & it seems like Israel just wants to expand by getting rid of the Palestinians & taking their land

1

Anonymous OP 1w

Bibi hated it because he believed it wasn’t enough. It had sunset clauses that meant the restrictions on enriching uranium would expire in 10-15 years. He was sure Iran would use the time to secretly conduct nuclear research and then be ready with a bomb as soon as it was over

1

Anonymous #2 1w

There are other reasons besides Hamas in the West Bank. It is true that many settlers are extremists who want the land, but settlers are an extreme minority in Israel’s population. The reason why their actions are tolerated by the government is more complex, and most of the Israeli people hate them

1

Anonymous #2 1w

Yeah & they could been renewed among a stable relationship but Trump ended because Bibi didn’t like it. Also Bibi has been saying Iran is months away from having a nuke for 40 years like it’s so ridiculous at this point

1

Anonymous OP 1w

No the sunset clauses would have stayed

1

Anonymous #2 1w

And although I do not like or argee with Bibi what he means when he says that is they have the technology to put a bomb together in a few months if they decide to

1

Anonymous #2 1w

Yes it’s super complicated why the IDF keeps protecting violent settlers & killing Palestinians in the West Bank along with building illegal settlements. I’m sure it’s so complicated & hard to understand 🙃

1

Anonymous #2 1w

I’m sorry because you’ve been chill & I don’t want to come off as rude since you haven’t been rude or hostile to me but that is an insanely stupid response & justification. Instead of the obvious Bibi is just lying that’s why he’s been saying they’re a few months away from a nuke for the last 40 years you go “well they could make one in a few months if they wanted “🤯 My brother in Christ like how much sense does that even make. Why would they not want to make one if they’ve been only a few

1

Anonymous OP 1w

Months away for the last 40 years & really hate Israel & want to see it destroyed. Like think for a second

1

Anonymous OP 1w

i’m not trying to get you to believe him lol. of course he’s lying, he’s a liar who cares about nothing but himself. I’m trying to get you to understand why his lies work on his people. bibi’s version of the story is that iran keeps trying to make a nuclear bomb, and bibi raises the alarm when they’re almost there and forces the world to stop them, and then some stupid optimistic left wing american president gives iran another chance and guess what, they make a bomb again

1

Anonymous #2 1w

bibi, like hamas, manipulates his people using their legitimate fears and traumas to convince them that he is their only option for survival. then he foments conflict that reinforces that belief. and the more human rights violations each side commits against the other, the more convinced each population becomes that their leaders are right

1

Anonymous #2 1w

its easy to see the holes in the story from outside but not so much from the inside. and that’s the really tragic irony of the whole conflict. on either side, the vast majority of people actually want to live in peace. but after years of conflict and manipulation, those same people largely all believe that the other side all wants to kill them and so they must act accordingly

1

Anonymous #2 1w

Yeah but that’s not true. They don’t build a bomb again they didn’t build a nuclear bomb to begin with so there’s no again. No dems aren’t being stupid when it comes to Iran and no they aren’t just constantly being stopped by other countries every time a Dem isn’t in power again that makes 0 sense considering the timeline. Also while I don’t think Hamas is some holy group you talk as if they’re equal to the Israeli government somehow. While I personally believe that there needs to be trial

1

Anonymous OP 1w

i don’t know enough about Iran’s nuclear program to say anything other than there is one. but again i’m not telling you it’s true, i’m telling you people THINK it’s true and that’s why they are still fighting

1

Anonymous OP 1w

After all is said & done which would see the Israeli government & IDF soldiers along with Hamas leader ship & members all fairly tried & punished depending on their specific actions. Hamas actions are ultimately born out of resistance. If Israel takes away any reason to resist there would be noticeable change & a actual path forward could be paved forward but you can’t oppress a population forever & just expect them to take it you’re begging for a group like Hamas to come into power under those

1

Anonymous OP 1w

Circumstance

1

Anonymous OP 1w

well the answer Bibi’s side would give to that is “we tried that in Gaza, we withdrew all our settlers and our army in 2004 and gave control over to local authorities and look what happened. we can’t risk that happening in the west bank too, they’d kill us”

1

Anonymous #2 1w

Also I do get what you’re saying regarding the nuclear program & the population being ruled by fears & lies & I don’t disagree with you at all. Although even that in my opinion is a bit more one sided.

1

Anonymous OP 1w

the only way this is ever going to end is if people on both sides are able to interact with people on the other side as human beings and really see each other. that’s what leadership on both sides is most afraid of and the very best thing the world could do is extend empathy to both of them and show them how its done. and yeah it’s one sided but i am primarily talking about one side

1

Anonymous #2 1w

Yeah Israel withdrew in 2005 but still kept many Palestinians in prison without even be charged of a crimes decent amount of them being under age. Like there’s still going to be resistance at the point

1

Anonymous #2 1w

I agree to an extent but it’s still not equal. Nor do I believe you can both sides a genocide or apartheid. Like the side doing the genocide & upholding the apartheid is definitely more wrong & has far more power to fix things.

1

Anonymous OP 1w

i agree israel has more responsibility and power but the mistake you’re making is assuming Hamas is just a resistance group— they’re not. they don’t want freedom, they want domination. so, historically, when israel has started taken steps to take responsibility and change things, Hamas takes advantage of whatever restrictions have been loosened to kill Israelis. this has led to a lot of Israelis being unwilling to try anymore because they don’t want to get hurt again

1

Anonymous #2 1w

it’s not about who is more at fault, it’s just there are multiple things that need to happen in order for a peace plan to actually progress successfully

1

Anonymous #2 1w

I mean Israel was oppressing Palestinians before Hamas existed. Israel oppress,kills, and breaks international law in places that aren’t ran by Hamas, Israel targets Palestinians when Hamas isn’t around. So to act like none plays a role in Hamas actions or people joining Hamas is wild. While I agree multiple things need to happen I disagree on the it’s not about who’s more at fault. When looking at genocide & apartheid it’s 1000% about who’s more at fault which is always the person doing the

1

Anonymous OP 1w

Genocide & upholding the apartheid

1

Anonymous OP 1w

Hamas itself is new but Hamas comes from a much older and longer tradition. Pogroms against Jewish communities in Palestine have been around for centuries

1

Anonymous #2 1w

Also countries are not people. I don’t have any sympathy for the Israeli government or Hamas and I would like to see them all in the Hague. What I’m talking about is empathy for the civilian populations being absolutely essential for peace

1

Anonymous #2 1w

So you’re saying Hamas has 0 issues with the way Israel has been treating Palestinians for decades & was born & acts just out of ancient antisemitism? I’m sorry but that’s ridiculous. Also I never said that a country is its people. Israel has a far right government with many Israeli citizens having far right views according to polling at the same time obviously advocating for the mass attacks on citizens or even simply assuming every Israeli you meet is pro genocide is ridiculously stupid,

1

Anonymous OP 1w

Antisemitic, and unproductive which is why I haven’t done that.

1

Anonymous OP 1w

i’m saying it’s both. and what you are calling “ridiculously stupid” is Hamas’ entire MO

1

Anonymous #2 1w

you haven’t done that, but you won’t acknowledge that the group that does say that is a major obstacle to peace

1

Anonymous #2 1w

I mean you could say the same thing about the IDF given their actions. Also I believe fully ending the genocide, apartheid, & releasing all the Palestinians held under administrative detention, allowing a right to return & reparations would greatly reduce that MO although that’s yet to be tried by Israel.

1

Anonymous OP 1w

i don’t know how many times and how many ways i can say this but you are just wrong about Hamas. i can link some articles that might help you understand them better

1

Anonymous #2 1w

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2023/10/what-hamas-wants-israel/675648/

1

Anonymous #2 1w

True because I personally believe the genocide & apartheid are easily the biggest obstacles to peace. Maybe you believe living under a genocide & apartheid doesn’t make that much of a difference but I’d beg to differ

1

Anonymous #2 1w

https://wisdomofcrowds.live/p/the-revolutionary-legitimacy-of-hamas

1

Anonymous OP 1w

i think they’re intertwined and have to be addressed all at the same time for this to work. that’s the only point i’m trying to make

1

Anonymous #2 1w

https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/teaching-terror-how-hamas-radicalizes-palestinian-society

1

Anonymous #2 1w

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-04-13/ty-article-magazine/.highlight/i-asked-sinwar-is-it-worth-10-000-gazans-dying-he-said-even-100-000-is-worth-it/0000018e-d40a-d5ed-adcf-f79af56c0000

1

Anonymous #2 1w

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna121099

1

Anonymous #2 1w

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/27/world/middleeast/palestine-gazans-hamas-food.html#:~:text=Hamas%20has%20spent%20years%20stockpiling,has%20carved%20out%20under%20Gaza.&text=As%20supplies%20of%20virtually%20every,remains%20well%2Dstocked%3A%20Hamas.

1

Anonymous #2 1w

I can’t read it. But I also just think I think genocide & apartheid are way worse & has far more traumatic effect on the people living under it than you do.

1

Anonymous #2 1w

I remember an interview one time when the guy being interviewed was saying I don’t hate Israel because they’re Jewish I hate them because they destroyed my home & killed my family. If a Muslim did that to me I’d hate them as well. Idk makes a lot of sense to me

1

Anonymous OP 1w

yeah that’s the perspective of most civilians on both sides

1

Anonymous OP 1w

Also one more interview I remember was from someone who grew up in the West Bank and openly admitted to having been antisemitic as a kid. He said is who life his family was constantly harassed & beat by IDF soldiers & settlers. He has memories of his little sisters stroller being destroyed and being beaten. Dude said that the people doing it would alway say it’s because they’re Jewish so that make them better then them it gives them the right to treat In that way. He had never met a Jew that

1

Anonymous OP 1w

Wasn’t an IDF member or settler & just assumed that’s how all Jews are because that’s how they all treated him and agin openly claimed they could do so because they were Jewish . He eventually came to the U.S. and met more Jews & saw they were nothing like the IDF soldiers & settlers that had beat & harassed his family his whole life. He realized that those soldiers& settlers were lying to him. What I’m trying to say is living under a genocide & apartheid will teach people to harbor those

1

Anonymous OP 1w

Feelings & resentment and that it steam from some ancient antisemitism or Hamas teaching people to feel some type of way

1

Anonymous #2 1w

Yeah I believe you’re right but both sides aren’t living under a genocide & apartheid

1

Anonymous OP 1w

Yes, it’s much worse for Palestinians but Israelis live with constant rocket attacks, terror attacks, and threats of extermination. That’s enough to fuck up a person too. But the trauma can be real and Netanyahu can be taking advantage of it at the same time. It’s the same with Palestinians and Hamas

1

Anonymous #2 1w

Yeah I acknowledge that living under those conditions definitely play a role in how Israeli citizens feel & well as how their far right government is able to manipulate them. But as long as their government continues do a genocide & upholding an apartheid their will be fear of retaliation by the oppressed as is the case of all genocides & apartheid

1

Anonymous OP 1w

Again the part you’re missing is that Hamas is not just retaliation/resistance. They have a genocidal agenda of their own

1

Anonymous #2 1w

And for decades (arguably longer) the extremists on each side have been feeding the extremists on the other which leads to them taking more and more extreme actions as this goes on

1

Anonymous OP 1w

Also going off of what you said about people fearing rockets I have a genuine question. I never understood so many people believing & saying that without Israel Jews around the world wouldn’t be safe or that Israel is the only safe place for a Jews. Idk the U.S. seems like a way more safer place for Jews when compared to Israel also idk how the existence of Israel protects Jews in the U.S. P.S I’m not advocating to end the existence of Israel I’m just saying that’s something I hear a lot that

1

Anonymous OP 1w

Has never made any sense to me

1

Anonymous OP 1w

yeah it’s a bit tough to explain, i don’t 100% agree but i understand why people say it. for one, the majority of israelis either were refugees or are descended from refugees who were expelled from where they were living before because of antisemitism, and then no country was willing to help them because of antisemitism, and then because they didn’t have a country of their own to advocate for them on a geopolitical level they had no way to get anyone to help them

1

Anonymous #2 1w

and for people with family histories like that, the rocket attacks are better than living in a country like the US where antisemitism is rising dramatically and history looks like it may be starting to repeat itself

1

Anonymous #2 1w

Again what you’re missing is the existence of Hamas isn’t the reason for the oppression of Palestinians. Before Hamas & when Hamas isn’t a factor Israel still kills & oppresses Palestinians. That fact bread’s retaliation & resistance.

1

Anonymous #2 1w

for diaspora jews, we now have a powerful country that speaks out when we are attacked. everything else about israel aside, that does have an effect on how our diaspora countries respond to attacks on us

1

Anonymous OP 1w

But you could also argue that Hamas’ predecessors were attacking Jewish communities before Israel even existed, all the way through the nineteenth and twentieth century. Like I said, the extremists on each side feed each other

1

Anonymous #2 1w

I get what you’re saying & I fully agree and acknowledge that antisemitism is rising in America. At the same time I still would say it’s much safer than Israel in my opinion outside looking in I’ll admit.

1

Anonymous #2 1w

for instance a lot of Israelis have not forgotten that the first Grand Mufti of Jerusalem in the 1930s-1940s was a member of the Nazi party who openly stated he wanted to bring the Final Solution to “Palestine and across the Arab lands”

1

Anonymous OP 1w

yeah it is a contested thing in the jewish community and has a lot to do with different kinds of trauma. some people would rather die fighting for a country that will never hate them for being Jewish than live in a country where you’re always looking over your shoulder for antisemitism. other people feel differently

1

Anonymous #2 1w

and then there’s the complexity of people whose families only survived various antisemitic events because of Israel so they’re fiercely loyal to it but also highly critical of it

1

Anonymous #2 1w

Yeah I’m aware of the Grand Mufti but to use that as justification for anything is wild & unserious. Bibi tried to do so & was rightfully called out by Holocaust historians. The Grand Mufti was installed by the British not elected by the Palestinians so it’s crazy to try & hold them accountable. Also history shows us plenty of Palestinians actually died fighting against the Nazis.

1

Anonymous OP 1w

it’s not a justification, I’m trying to explain how this snowballed. extremists responded to extremists with more extremism until it built up to today

1

Anonymous #2 1w

the West Bank is actually a good example of that hold on i’ll type it up

1

Anonymous #2 1w

That makes sense. Thank you the explanation

1

Anonymous OP 1w

thanks for asking so respectfully :)

6

Anonymous #2 1w

No problem like I said earlier you’ve been chill & respectful so I try my best to do the same. But yeah your explanation for why there’s a belief that Israel is a safe haven makes sense to me. While I disagree thanks to you it’s easy for me to see why some may feel differently

1

Anonymous OP 1w

i really respect you for that

5

Anonymous OP 1w

I’m a marginalized person from a historical oppressed background & I know it plays a role in how I view things along with my world view

4

Anonymous #2 1w

Thanks keeping it 💯 I have no issue admitting that I don’t know something or hearing someone out if they seem to be acting in good faith regardless on if I agree or not & I believe everything you say is in good faith

2

Anonymous #2 1w

this is actually a better snapshot than anything i could write up, it doesn’t cover everything but you can kind of see the pattern of extremism on one side —> extremism on the other. and from the perspective of people on the ground, throughout this time the Arab and Jewish communities in the WB became more and more isolated from each other until they only ever see each other in moments of violence

1

Anonymous OP 1w

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/article/timeline-israeli-palestinian-peace-process-1993-oslo-accord/

1

Anonymous OP 1w

i believe the same about you and i really appreciate this conversation. i totally understand what you mean about how being from a historically oppressed background shapes your worldview. i definitely have my biases especially on this subject but i try really hard to learn from lots of different sources and see past them

4

Anonymous OP 1w

With the being said I disagree that you could make an equal argument regarding Hamas predecessors attacking Israel as you could with Israel attacking Palestinians before Hamas & when Hamas isn’t in the picture. I don’t think you relate those pogromas to Palestinians. Where has being doing it since it’s official founding In 1975 & continues to do so

1

Anonymous OP 1w

Sorry just saw your link I’ll check it out

1

Anonymous OP 1w

that is a good point and it is tricky. i think antisemitism and legitimate anger have been tangled up in Palestinian opposition to the Zionist project since the mid nineteenth century at least, and conversely racism against Palestinians has been tangled up with legitimate fear of attack on the Jewish side

1

Anonymous #2 1w

i have a source that kind of shows what that looks like from the perspective of Israelis— it is very one sided but reliable factually

1

Anonymous #2 1w

Yeah it definitely makes a difference. I think everyone has biases although most people refuse to admit it. Like you I can admit I have biases & try my best to keep that in mind. As far as it pertains to Israel & Palestine I will say that most people from my background who visit the West Bank describe the treatment of the Palestinians as almost identical to some of the treatment my people faced & regardless on if they visit with a neutral stance or are escorted by the IDF or settlers they

1

Anonymous OP 1w

Almost always come back saying that the way the Palestinians are treated is all to familiar to same treatment my ancestors experienced. Now that’s the West Bank. While most Americans didn’t really know about Israel & Palestine before 10/7/23 since I was a kid my parents spoke very negatively of Bibi. Although they never talked about Israel, Israelis, or Jews but like I said they did hate & only had bad things to say about Bibi my mom used always say F Bibi he

1

Anonymous OP 1w

yeah i totally get that and they’re right to call it out. from my perspective how this came to be is different so how it must be taken apart is different. but when it comes to recognizing how much people are suffering and how awful the human rights violations are, the how/why doesn’t matter so much. people aren’t in any less pain because of the geopolitical nuances of the situation and i can imagine how especially deeply affecting it is for people from your background

1

Anonymous #2 1w

(and to be clear perpetrators aren’t any less responsible either)

1

Anonymous OP 1w

A warmonger. So that’s a little bit about my background & possibly biases

1

Anonymous OP 1w

lol my parents actually said similar things about Bibi

6

Anonymous #2 1w

Well that’s at least one thing our parents would have agreed on.

4

Anonymous OP 1w

absolutely

1

Anonymous #2 1w

im happy to talk more if you ever want to about jewish stuff or your background or anything else, you have a really interesting and thoughtful perspective on things and i appreciate you challenging me on my biases

5

Anonymous #2 1w

Definitely & thank you. Yeah ultimately I think coexistence isn’t just possible but necessary. Hell despite all of Israel’s actions in the West Bank being wrong & indefensible in my opinion or even with my background I genuinely don’t think kicking out all the settlers is realistic nor do I think a ton of violence & killing them is the right thing to do. I genuinely believe blood shed can be greatly stopped & Jews can & should be able still call the region home. While also ending the

3

Anonymous OP 1w

Oppression of the Palestinians

3

Anonymous OP 1w

i 10000000% that is very well said

3