Anonymous #1 5w

yeah, i just don’t trust the allegations of human rights abuses when they come from western press. we (the US and its colonies) tend to point at other claims of human rights abuses and use them as a pretext to then intervene and commit far more abuses than were ever initially claimed, all the while selling off the assets of whatever host nation they’ve parasitized. and sorry, trump is objectively worse than Maduro. kick rocks

-3

Anonymous #1 5w

you parroting imperialist propaganda is still in service of regime change. if we want Venezuelans to be free, we’d lot the sanctions and allow them to interact with the global market. instead we encourage centralization by isolating them and taking constant covert action in an attempt to destabilize their nation.

-3

Anonymous _orangutan 5w

Im sure 20% of Venezuelans fled the country since 2014 while speaking out about the atrocities of the government for no reason. It must be awfully convenient to preemptively disregard any source that might conflict with your precious little worldview.

14

Anonymous #2 5w

nothing to do with the sanctions that isolate Venezuela from the global market, and were enacted with the specific intent of worsening living conditions for Venezuelans still in Venezuela. i wonder why all of the diasporas that wind up in America from nations the US has destabilized tend to be reactionary? perhaps they have a vested interest in using them to further American interests?

-1

Anonymous _orangutan 5w

Ah yes, the Venezuelan economy collapsed in 2014 because of the sanctions in 2017. I’m sure all 7.7 million Venezuelan refugees are just puppets of the American government.

4

Anonymous #2 5w

i’ll let you delete this

1

Anonymous _orangutan 5w

Discrediting allegations of violations of human rights based solely on their source is lazy. You should evaluate the credibility of the reports themselves as well

14

Anonymous _orangutan 5w

Do you know the difference between target sanctions and broad sanctions? Is your argument that stopping weapons sales to Venezuela and halting trade with a few select individuals caused an entire economy to collapse? Lmao please tell me you’re not serious

1

Anonymous #2 5w

Targeted*

1

Anonymous #2 5w

Their entire economy depended on oil, and oil prices declined significantly around 2014-2015. They also didn’t maintain their oil infrastructure (but sanctions usually hurt maintenance efforts too)

6

Anonymous #3 5w

There are a great many countries that depend on oil that didn’t collapse in 2014.

1

Anonymous #2 5w

yes, halting key individuals within the finance sector, the ultimate source of economic planning under capitalism, halts the entire economy. not to mention that Venezuela is isolated from the international market because of the targeted sanctions on key individuals. i don’t think Venezuela is perfect, just understand that it is the product of constant American interference, and that regime change, when imposed from the outside, will not yield anything better for Venezuelans

4

Anonymous #2 5w

if Maduro is guilty, let Venezuelans decide. they’ve demonstrated that they are capable of building revolutions to overthrow corrupt dictatorships. they have done so in the past. meanwhile the US is headed by a child rapist dictator who is turning the country into a global pariah state

6

Anonymous _orangutan 5w

and what’re Americans doing? cheering on regime change ?

5

Anonymous #2 5w

That’s true. The issue with VZ was that they overspent and didn’t diversify. Saudi Arabia was hurting too, but didn’t full on collapse

5

Anonymous #3 5w

Saudi Arabia also has a very loyal customer who has all but increased its oil consumption over the past decade. Venezuela is literally unable to extract, refine, or export their oil because of the sanctions on individuals within the financial and oil sectors

2

Anonymous _orangutan 5w

I hope this helps you visualize how unserious the argument is that the 2005 targeted sanctions caused the economic collapse. This has been extensively studied by academics. I’m not sure there is any serious expert echoing your claim.

1

Anonymous _orangutan 5w

Of course I’m sure you’ll disregard the work of any expert who disagrees with you before examining their work.

1

Anonymous #2 5w

i really didn’t claim 2005 was the beginning, i was just disputing your claim that 2017 was when the sanctions were imposed, after the 2014 economic downturn. it looks like the first of the two sources supports what you’ve provided in that the sanctions exacerbated decline and prevented any sort of recovery following 2014, and the further strengthening of them has solidified this

1

Anonymous #2 5w

why’re you so condescending? i’m literally using your evidence to synthesize a more complete argument

1

Anonymous _orangutan 5w

I will always be open to “the US does human rights abuses” the burden of proof for “documented human rights abuses elsewhere are fake” is MUCH higher

7

Anonymous _orangutan 5w

The claim that Maduro “did nothing wrong” is fucking evil. I’m sorry if you cant handle the same energy you regularly give to other people on this app.

5

Anonymous #2 5w

even human rights watch gave her a shoutout

1

Anonymous #3 5w

Looking further, it looks like SA had built up huge reserves during the oil booms and paid down debt, but VZ increased their spending. That set them up for trouble that SA didn’t run into as much when oil prices crashed. Can’t really figure out why they didn’t pivot towards gold mining before 2016, but it seems like PVDSA wanted all the power (their setup and interaction with the government budget seems different from how Saudi Aramco is set up)

4

Anonymous _orangutan 5w

these are things the US also does ?

1

Anonymous _orangutan 5w

idk, the evidence for human rights abuses amounts to electoral interference in most instances, to which, we live in the US ? i guarantee every person in this thread lives in a gerrymandered district where voting patterns are deliberately manipulated by the ruling parties

1

Anonymous _orangutan 5w

i say this not to deflect from Venezuela, more to ask why the FUCK we care more about corruption and human rights abuses in Venezuela, that amount to dramatically less than the actual abuses we commit EN MASSE abroad, while simultaneously ignoring the active human rights violations occurring domestically?

1

Anonymous _orangutan 5w

I care a lot about our human rights abuses. I think about them far more often than I think about venezuela. We are talking about Venezuela’s corruption and human rights abuses literally solely because YOU posted “Nicolas maduro did nothing wrong”

4

Anonymous #1 5w

yeah it’s rage bait lol

-1

Anonymous _orangutan 5w

if you framed this as being about the US’s human rights abuses in your original post, your argument here would make sense. But you didn’t. So we are having a different conversation

3

Anonymous _orangutan 5w

Also there is plenty of evidence of extrajudicial killing by the Venezuelan govt under maduro as well as information blackouts. That goes beyond election interference

6

Anonymous _orangutan 5w

why do you think it makes sense to post rage bait right now. use your fucking brain - what good thing could come of this?

6

Anonymous _orangutan 5w

anyway, im out of here. Maybe spend the rest of your sunday doing something that actually helps people.

1

Anonymous #1 5w

it’s my day off ngl, i’m chilling instead

1