The whole world is a toilet bro, god is the divine shitter, he dropped us like a log into the cosmic John

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Anonymous #2 7w

Real ones know that all theistic and simulation arguments inevitably boil down to god of the gaps 💀

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Anonymous OP 7w

That's true only if you believe the entirety of the universe can be explained in a scientific framework though

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Anonymous #2 7w

Yes 😎

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Anonymous OP 7w

Would you say it's accurate to describe that as a framework of understanding of the universe that requires faith, since we cannot actually explain everything in the universe with science right now?

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Anonymous #2 7w

No, you don’t have to have faith in a particular explanation when something is unproven. You can just say “I don’t know”. We can accept what is verifiable and simply answer “I don’t know” rather than resort to the same “god of the gaps” arguments that theists do.

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Anonymous OP 7w

But the idea that everything in the universe can be explained by science IS a particular explanation, even if you admit that there are unknowns due to our lapse in knowledge

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Anonymous #2 7w

Science is the systematic study of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment. If something cannot be observed or tested, there is no difference between that “thing” and nothing.

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Anonymous OP 7w

This is the philosophy known as "complete materialism" and I don't agree. If something cannot be observed, that doesn't by necessity mean it is non existent.

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Anonymous #2 7w

You are correct this is the materialist philosophy, and it is the result of Metaphysical thought being rendered obsolete by the natural sciences. If it cannot be measured or observed with any conceivable instrument, what you are actually describing is the absence of something, aka nothing.

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Anonymous #2 7w

To exist requires form and substance. something that does not have form, substance, or isn’t a force between objects, cannot “exist”.

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Anonymous OP 7w

Funny because mathematical truths have no form, no substance, cannot be observed materially besides as a representation, yet they are true. Same with logic, and I'm of the opinion that there is a higher moral truth as well.

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Anonymous OP 7w

Would you not agree that 1+1=2 exists?

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Anonymous #2 7w

1+1=2 does not exist as a non-physical thing in some metaphysical realm, but mathematics exists in our minds as a way to describe objective things in the universe around us. Think of it like a language that describes the world. “Thing-in-itself” arguments and similar such metaphysical mental gymnastics won’t get you far with a materialist.

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Anonymous OP 7w

Same principle applies to logic and morality. These are human constructions that are useful sets of principles, but they don’t exist anywhere but within our minds.

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Anonymous OP 7w

Ahhh, a moral subjectivist too. I wouldn't expect any less from a materialist.

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Anonymous #2 7w

Morals can be based on objective things, such as “what causes others the least amount of harm”, but yes, there is no set of morals that is “correct” and to assume yours are is hubris. There are different moral frameworks that prioritize different values and interests.

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Anonymous OP 7w

So you don't think that murder and pedophilia are objectively bad? Lmao

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Anonymous OP 7w

Whatever lets you sleep at night, I guess.

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Anonymous #2 7w

Ofc to me they are bad, they violate others bodily autonomy and consent, and societally we agree as these harm the species collectively. But there is no magical and metaphysical thing that makes them wrong, they are wrong because we understand the harms and agree as a society they are wrong.

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Anonymous #2 7w

I sleep fine thank you. I murder as much as want (which is zero). If you need a metaphysical moral truth, or a god to keep you from harming people that says a lot more about you than it does about me.

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Anonymous OP 7w

I'd rather be a monster that takes great caution to overcome my nature than born good in a world where murder and pedophilia being bad are a matter of difference in opinion.

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Anonymous #2 7w

You obviously know what I mean, and you are demonstrating yourself to not be a good faith interlocutor. If you value the prevention of suffering, which these crimes objectively cause, you will think they are immoral (like me and hopefully you). If you don’t, then you wouldn’t (and society will do away with you). There is no metaphysical rulebook that states these things are wrong, but sane people call them wrong because they objectively cause suffering.

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Anonymous OP 7w

I don't value it because I think my opinion is above others, I value the prevention of suffering because it's God's will.

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Anonymous #2 7w

Bingo, you think it’s because “god” says so lmao. The thing is he doesn’t. Assuming you are a Christian, your god never once condemns pedophilia (disgusting) and also directly condones slavery and rape. And there’s plenty of exceptions to “thou shall not kill”

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Anonymous OP 7w

Hardly “objective morals” 🤣

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Anonymous OP 7w

I don't think you're fairly engaging with scripture if you can't find condemnation for pedophilia and rape, the condemnation of pedophilia in Christianity is actually mistaken by many as a condemnation of homosexuality because of Roman practices. Additionally, the slave/master relationship is not condemned because that is the relationship between man and God.

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Anonymous #2 7w

That is a common argument used by Christians to pinkwash their bigoted religion. The truth is even if we take that verse to be anti-pederasty, your book says nothing about the abuse of little girls by adult men and in fact it happens all the time with gods grace upon it. Slavery is not condemned “obey your earthly masters” from Jesus, and don’t even look in the old testament tho. But ofc religion will always reinterpret their scriptures to match changes in morality over time, as it’s man made.

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Anonymous #2 7w

Marital rape is never condemned, and taking war brides is encouraged in the Old Testament. The whole book is barbaric nonsense that has no place in modern scientific spaces, and there is no reason to prefer it to any of the other religions created by humans over the course of history.

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Anonymous OP 7w

Matthew 18:6 would also have some strongly worded comments about such things, again I just don't think you are fairly engaging with the text.

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Anonymous #2 7w

Mathew 18:6 never mentions it at all, to assume this is a condemnation of pedophilia is to assume the Bible already condemns it, when it does not. The only one not fairly engaging with the text is you, who has to come up with ad hoc rationalizations to continue believing what is barbaric nonsense to anyone outside the religion.

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Anonymous OP 7w

Romans 10:4 makes Old Testament laws unnecessary

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Anonymous #2 7w

And yet it’s still the same god you worship. That same “unchanging” god lmao. Very sad you have to throw out the majority of your book to not seem genuinely evil for believing in this god.

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Anonymous OP 7w

Yep, maybe come to learn about the idea of fulfillment vs abolishment.

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Anonymous #2 7w

Correct, he didn’t come to abolish the law at all, but to “fulfill” it. Which of course still means you have to contend with all the barbaric evil your god condones in the Old Testament.

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Anonymous OP 7w

Truly reddit Athiest tier argument (think they call this pride) to assume one's own opinion is higher than the literal moral truth. I have faith in Christ, he loves us.

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Anonymous #2 7w

I think you’d have to prove that “moral truth” first, and even then, the only one prideful is the one here who thinks their morals are objective lmao. But you go on your way calling anyone who dosent like your child rapist, slavery condoning, misogynistic, and bigoted book from thousands of years ago “Reddit” or whatever lmao

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Anonymous OP 7w

And ofc continue reinterpreting it when its morality falls so out of date that just reading some of its contents to children would have you arrested. All of this has the trappings of subjective morality.

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Anonymous OP 7w

I never even had the chance to reinterpret it this way, I never existed before Christ.

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Anonymous OP 7w

Also for a materialist, you're hardly bringing up any observable evidence of these claims. I gave you specific verses denying them already. Have a blessed night.

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Anonymous #2 7w

You have been reinterpreting it this entire conversation, and coming up with rationalizations for the terrible things that exist not just in the Old Testament, but the new.

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Anonymous #2 7w

The “evidence” is that the book explicitly condones these things. I genuinely wonder if believers have ever actually read it. If they have they, like you, rationalize it away. Ofc there is no material evidence this god actually said any of it because he isn’t real lmao. These are mythologies from the near east from thousands of years ago. “Blessing me” or “praying for me” isn’t respectful like you think it is. How would you like it if I said “I’ll put in a good word with Satan for ya”.

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Anonymous OP 7w

*asks for specific evidence* "Uhm well the evidence is that it says it"

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Anonymous OP 7w

Also I don't care what you say about Satan, you don't have faith in any of this.

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Anonymous OP 7w

Have a blessed day though.

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Anonymous #2 7w

I explicitly referenced the verse where Jesus condones slavery, (Ephesians 6:5) but there is also Colossians 3:22, and 1st Peter 2:18. Deuteronomy commands a wife who does not bleed on her wedding night be stoned to death (many woman don’t and it is not evidence of virginity) meaning “god” orders countless women to be murdered. There is countless instances of barbaric cruelty, if you read the book you would know, and I wouldn’t have to do your job of finding the verses in YOUR book.

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Anonymous #2 7w

Have a cursed day! I don’t believe in this nonsense, but ill ask my Satanist friend to pray for you that your soul is claimed 🥰

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Anonymous OP 7w

That’s Deuteronomy 22:13-21 btw

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Anonymous OP 7w

Good thing souls are claimed through personal faith and not other people's prayers, almost had me concerned there.

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Anonymous #2 7w

Ahh interesting, can you prove it? 🤭

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Anonymous OP 7w

(the book says so) isn’t proof btw

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Anonymous OP 7w

These passages, when read in context, do not endorse misogyny, rape, or perpetual slavery. They reflect ancient Near Eastern customs but also contain transformative principles that, over time, led to greater human dignity. The Bible's ultimate trajectory, especially in the New Testament, is toward freedom, equality, and love, even if it engages with fallen human structures along the way.

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Anonymous OP 7w

John 1:12

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Anonymous #2 7w

“The book says so” isn’t proof, unless you also believe that Muhammad is the true prophet of god? (The Quran says so)

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Anonymous OP 7w

No, because I don't have faith in the Quran. Does your Satanist friend believe that we get reincarnated because Buddhists say so?

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Anonymous #2 7w

It is ridiculous to believe that. These verses are reprehensible even in context, no context makes slavery, murder of women, and rape ok. You are rationalizing away the parts of this ancient book, and only acknowledging the good. Believe what you want, but ignoring the parts of your book that make you uncomfortable isn’t going to be very convincing for others.

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Anonymous #2 7w

Ahhhh, so your faith is the proof. That should have been what I expected lmao

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Anonymous OP 7w

Yes exactly, if you have faith the proof is right there.

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Anonymous #2 7w

Blind faith will justify any belief, no matter how ridiculous. You do you, but some people think you need more than that to form a coherent worldview 🤭

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Anonymous OP 7w

Faith isn't blindness or ignorance.

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Anonymous #2 7w

It’s both.

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