Anonymous #1 11w

with israel and palestine is you see polls like this from both sides and you never see the more in depth research where people on both sides say “i would accept it if i thought the other side would genuinely accept it too, but i don’t think they ever will”

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Anonymous #1 11w

https://greatergood.berkeley.edu/article/item/the_psychological_divide_that_threatens_peace_in_gaza

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Anonymous #1 11w

Thank you I took a look at it & it makes sense. Although I do think the side that’s an apartheid state doing a genocide & the side that’s surviving said apartheid & genocide does change how I view said report

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Anonymous OP 11w

glad you looked!!!! i think it’s important to understand :)

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Anonymous #1 11w

and yeah i get it Palestinians are definitely suffering a lot more than israelis but from the israeli perspective Palestinians are constantly launching rockets at them and trying to do terror attacks and threatening more oct 7ths— both sides hear the rhetoric and suffer the consequences of the other sides’ extremist leaders and don’t hear the ordinary people on the other side

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Anonymous #1 11w

Yeah no problem. It was an easy read & easy to understand. Thank you for sharing.

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Anonymous OP 11w

South Africa’s apartheid but during the apartheid the ANC was constantly attacking & people were killed & those attacks were used as a justification to keep the apartheid by many white South Africans despite the fact that those attacks were happening as a response to the apartheid. He was saying how now decades removed most people see how the white South Africans reasoning was flawed but as someone who grow up in it he finds it almost identical to what Israelis & Zionist use as justification

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Anonymous OP 11w

i mean nothing happened in a vacuum, the nakba didn’t happen in a vacuum either. israel/palestine is a very different situation historically, in terms of how the current (unjust) system developed, and in terms of how the different groups of people involved relate to each other (involves thousands of years more history). and israeli and palestinian are national identities, not racial ones— there are arab and palestinian israelis. i can send you some more stuff to read if you want

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Anonymous #1 11w

i think the apartheid comparison makes sense as a way to get across the level of injustice in the West Bank but when it comes to understanding the specifics of the situation and what solutions might work, relying on that does people a real disservice because it is very different

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Anonymous #1 11w

to acknowledge israeli pain and fear doesn’t in any way take away from palestinian pain and fear. it also doesn’t require lessening the rage you feel at the horrors palestinians have gone through or somehow saying it’s “not as bad”. understanding both is necessary for understanding how things got here and how things could potentially get better

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Anonymous #1 11w

like oct 7 was so painful for israelis in part because of how closely in tactics and rhetoric the attacks resembled the kinds of attacks that were carried out on jewish communities in mandatory palestine before israel and sometimes even before zionism existed

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Anonymous #1 11w

boycotts don’t work on israelis the same way they worked on white south africans because israelis remember campaigns of anti-jewish boycotts in the 1800s before israel existed. it’s hard for them to believe that these things are happening solely because of israel when they happened before israel too

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Anonymous #1 11w

none of that excuses anything israel has done to palestinians. but it affects what kinds of policies and strategies will help and which will inadvertently make things worse

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Anonymous #1 11w

I mean there’s no doubt in my mind that Israeli feel genuine pain & fear or that 10/7 was a deeply psychological, not only physical effect on the citizens of Israel proper I mean I believe it was a truly horrific attack & I can acknowledge that. I just find it difficult to prioritize it as a means to an end. Historically speaking as far as I know no group has done a crime against humanity & then stoped it because their fears & pain that they used as justification for said crime against humanity

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Anonymous OP 11w

Was seen & appealed to. Like I can’t think of a time that worked to stop slavery, apartheid, genocide in any other historical period so I find it hard to imagine it uniquely working on Israeli’s and seeing them at some very unique outlier. As for boycotts we can’t say that it won’t work on Israel considering we haven’t done a boycott to them that’s close to the one that happened to South Africa. Until we actually do it I don’t believe we can be so sure it will fail.

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Anonymous OP 11w

Also I want to make one thing clear I in NO WAY think you're trying to run cover for Israel or take away from the plight of the Palestinians

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Anonymous OP 11w

but they ARE a unique outlier because they are a people who have been oppressed and had their fear and pain go unseen for 2,000 years. what other group has that history? they are a product of immense trauma that has largely been not only ignored but exacerbated. israelis largely are in israel because their family history and life experiences have made them believe there is no end to antisemitism. the world has given them no reason to think anything has changed, so why should they listen?

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Anonymous #1 11w

the descendants of the people who drove them to israel in the first place are saying the same things and doing the same things but now they’re saying it’s because of israel, and if israel stops existing, the hate will stop. i mean, again, without justifying anything israel does, if you were israeli, would you listen to that?

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Anonymous #1 11w

(this is israeli jews not israeli arabs their perspectives are very different)

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Anonymous #1 11w

i’m not saying if you held hands with west bank israeli terrorists and told them you see their trauma and sang kumbaya there would be peace tomorrow. but it’s an essential part of the peace process, just as much as israelis and the world recognizing palestinian fear and pain

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Anonymous #1 11w

also just want to add even if we decide to ignore that part of it, that doesn’t mean everyone else ignores it. iran doesn’t ignore it. hamas doesn’t ignore it. netanyahu doesn’t ignore it. and all of those powers are going to use it to manipulate israelis away from peace and not towards it. think about it— if hamas wanted peace, oct 7 was the worst POSSIBLE thing they could have done. so what did they want?

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Anonymous #1 11w

I mean regardless of their feelings & history at the end of the day Israel is an apartheid state doing a genocide there’s just no way to validate an apartheid & genocide like there’s no to look at someone & say I understand why you felt apartheid & genocide was the answer. Despite the history of the Holocaust or pogroms which were all horrible & unjustifiable I can’t look at the apartheid & genocide and see it as somehow more valid or understandable then any other apartheid & genocide

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Anonymous OP 11w

As for Hamas destroying a chance at peace on 10/7 I don’t believe that either. Before 10/7 2023 was named the deadliest year for Palestinian children due to being killed by the IDF & settlers in mass. Settlers having been building illegal settlements & killing Palestinians in the West Bank for decades despite Hamas not being their & attacking. If anything it just proves that Israel was going to go after the Palestinians if they resisted the Apartheid peaceful or violently. You may believe Israel

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Anonymous OP 11w

Is uniquely different then every single other group or country that’s had an an apartheid or genocide but historically asking your oppressors nicely to end the apartheid & to treat/see you as an equal has never worked & after it not working for a long time people turn to violence that’s just how it’s historically happened always so idk how this is somehow different or unique despite the unjustifiable prosecution that Jews have historically faced. Also Jews like every other religion & ethnic

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Anonymous OP 11w

Group aren’t a monolith. There’s plenty of Jews who at Israel’s inception & currently who see Israel’s actions the way I do.

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Anonymous OP 11w

this is all i’m going to say about this but once again, i am not trying to validate or justify any of israel’s actions. i am trying to explain how to reach israel’s people and make them understand that what they did is not valid or justifiable AND THAT THERE IS ANOTHER WAY FOR THEM TO BE. i’m not trying to convince you that they had no choice, i’m trying to explain to you why THEY THOUGHT they had no choice. and i never said Hamas destroyed the chance of peace

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Anonymous #1 11w

i said if they were interested in peace oct 7 was the worst possible thing they, from their position, in this moment, could have done. there are a million examples of both israeli and palestinian leaders doing the worst possible thing from their position in their moment for peace. none of them are solely responsible for there not being peace, but all of their actions made it more distant and often that was intentional and it’s important to hold them all accountable for that

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Anonymous #1 11w

besides this isn’t what i think Palestinians should do but what i think those of us outside the immediate conflict should do

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Anonymous #1 11w

and yes people aren’t a monolith but the vast majority of jews feel connection/concern for israelis themselves even if they hate israel’s government or criticize the way it was founded

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Anonymous #1 11w

and one more clarification obviously this won’t make the extremists and political leaders or military architects of everything stop or change. they’re not going to change. but the public, yes

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Anonymous #1 11w

it’s part of a deradicalization process which both israelis and palestinians need to

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Anonymous #1 11w

if you don’t think it’s possible for societies to change like that, that’s okay. but if you think maybe they can, there’s a really amazing new book called The Future is Peace

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Anonymous #1 11w

I of course think it’s possible for societies to change. I mean look at South Africa, Nazi Germany, Slave trade in the U.S. & the Jim Crow South. Also I understand why Israelis & Zionist think that the actions of Israel are necessary for their survivalI they & existence they say it all the time. I’m just saying that I don’t see how trying to appeal to that reasoning in any way shape or form will make a difference for Israelis when didn’t make a difference for any other group of people

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Anonymous OP 11w

who did the same thing. I guess the key difference between us is I don’t see Israelis & Zionist as unique from any other group in history who’s engaged in genocide & apartheid whereas U do. Also I agree de radicalization is important but again historically it was something that really only happened in any effective way after the institutions doing the oppression were destroyed. So until the apartheid & genocide are stopped I don’t believe de radicalization can take place in any country wide

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Anonymous OP 11w

Meaningful way. As for both sides committing actions that weren’t in the best interest of peace while I don’t fully disagree with you I will again say there’s no both sides in Apartheid & Genocide & again the West Bank is a prime example of what Israel’s actions look like when you don’t have a group like Hamas “ getting in the way/hindering opportunities for peace” we don’t both sides apartheid in South Africa despite the violence committed by the ANC, we don’t both sides slavery despite the

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Anonymous OP 11w

Innocent people harmed during slave rebellions, we don’t both sides the Holocaust despite the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising & also during all of these events the group committed said atrocities felt real fear & justification for their actions. We can all easily acknowledge that fear & justification was not valid but they did feel & experience it the fear. Yet we didn’t end any of those things by trying to appeal to that fear in the slightest. So again for me I just don’t find Israelis or Zionist unique

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Anonymous OP 11w

In their actions or reasoning & while I full heartedly believe that peace is not only possible but peace can be achieved without mass violence or expulsion of either group of people from the region. I don’t an emotional response to someone who supports genocide or apartheid is what will lead to it since it’s never worked before. I also that as far as stopping the violence there needs to be much greater emphasis on the people doing the genocide & apartheid then the people living under the

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Anonymous OP 11w

Genocide & apartheid

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Anonymous OP 11w

okay i am just going to the comparison to slave revolts and the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising are deeply inaccurate, inappropriate, and frankly offensive for too many reasons for me to list here. palestinian terror organizations have powerful international backers, billions of dollars in funding, a captive population that they oppress and rob, a philosophy of holy war, and a long history of targeting children and civilians in israel as well as brutally repressing palestinians. they’re not grassroots

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Anonymous #1 11w

your understanding of this whole situation is deeply deeply flawed and incomplete if you can make that comparison with a straight face and i really do hope you read from other sources than the ones you’ve been relying on

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Anonymous #1 11w

I’m sorry you’re right the Palestinians response to genocide & apartheid should not be compared to the other times people responded to crimes against humanity like slavery & genocide since they were more “less powerful” & “different types of victims” I apologize for viewing all genocides equally bad I didn’t think of how it might make the people defending it feel

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Anonymous OP 11w

hamas is not the palestinians’ response to anything. hamas actively silences and represses palestinians. but at this point you’re just trying to hurt my feelings so goodbye

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Anonymous #1 11w

I’m not even pro Hamas but to act like Hamas would exist if it wasn’t for the actions of Israel is ridiculous. As I’ve pointed out many times & something that you’ve conveniently ignored every time that I’ve brought it up West Bank is a prime example of what Israel does when Hamas & and anti Israel support doesn’t exist. Looks like In both cases it’s the mass killing of Palestinians at the hand of Israel. I’m not trying to hurt your feelings I’m just not trying to shield them.

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Anonymous OP 11w

Hamas and anti-Israel violence absolutely does exist in the West Bank. I never said Hamas wouldn’t exist if not for Israel, I said they don’t represent Palestinians because they are a repressive autocratic government that tortures and kills Palestinians who don’t fall in line. Those are facts

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Anonymous #1 11w

The thing you’re failing to understand is that acknowledging violence and extremism exists on one side doesn’t excuse violence and extremism on the other. No matter what Hamas does, what Israel did in the West Bank and Gaza is wrong. But no matter what Israel does, what Hamas does to any Israelis and Palestinians it can get power over is also wrong. And the trauma caused by those wrong actions feeds extremism and creates a really horrific cycle

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Anonymous #1 11w

Anti Israel violence & Hamas are not real issues in the West Bank, also under international law any violence against Israelis in the West Bank is legal since it’s illegal occupied land although I personally don’t think mass violence against the settlers is the answer. At the end of day the people doing the genocide & apartheid are the issues & the ones responsible for stopping it.

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Anonymous OP 11w

No I get it you want to both sides genocide & apartheid assuming you agree that Israel is an apartheid state committing a genocide

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Anonymous OP 11w

No it’s not legal I’m sorry but for the last few comments you’ve been mixing valid anger and opinions with word for word Hamas propaganda. I hope you figure things out

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Anonymous #1 11w

Dude Israel under international law is considered a Belligerent Occupier in the West Bank that’s no Hamas propaganda

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Anonymous OP 11w

Not everything is Hamas propaganda like be for real

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Anonymous OP 11w

look my argument this whole time has been the israeli general public is reachable through empathetic listening and sharing humanizing narratives and this might be the most powerful thing we can do for peace. i sent you a piece of psychological proof. i sent you the title of a book that makes that argument. you responded by saying i’m trying to both sides genocide and apartheid

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Anonymous #1 11w

the idea that seeing israelis as human is a betrayal to palestinians is propaganda

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Anonymous #1 11w

you can check out ALLMEP, parents circle, women of the sun, peace now, jerusalem youth chorus, neve shalom/wahat al-salam, and countless other organizations and initiatives if you want to see for yourself whether this strategy works

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Anonymous #1 11w

https://www.compassionatelistening.org/post/supporting-peace-efforts-in-israel-palestine-a-community-resource-compilation

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Anonymous #1 11w

https://law.stanford.edu/press/israelis-and-palestinians-discuss-the-difficult-path-to-peace/

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Anonymous #1 11w

Yep me saying historically what your saying has never worked to stop crimes against humanity & that Israel & it’s citizens aren’t unique when it comes to this & what you’re saying can only be achieved after Israel ends the apartheid & genocide means I don’t see Israelis as humans. Sure whatever you got to tell yourself. Hell the only thing we’ve done as a country is put the feeling & fears of Israeli citizens first for decades. Crazy how instead of making any lasting change Israel has only

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Anonymous OP 11w

Grown more right wing & more settlements have been built. But maybe if we keep doing it things will magically change we just haven’t done it long enough. The past 50 years wasn’t enough time we just need to keep it up the citizens & country will change & finally end the apartheid 🙃

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Anonymous OP 11w

I mean by you logic I must not see white Americans, Germans, and white South Africans as humans as well.

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Anonymous OP 11w

Although I will still read your articles that you're sharing & will thank you for the reading material

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Anonymous OP 11w

i’m glad you will read :) i understand why you’re angry, i am too. but i have been reading and learning about this region and its history and its current peace initiatives for a long time now. and i really do think in this case, dialogue could work— not alone, obviously, but i think it’s essential

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Anonymous #1 11w

this history in particular helped me understand why ordinary people on both sides are so pessimistic about each other https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/article/timeline-israeli-palestinian-peace-process-1993-oslo-accord/

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Anonymous #1 11w

Don’t get me wrong I’m not anti dialogue or even think the feelings of Israeli citizens is 💯 mingles nor am I ignorant to peace groups in Israel or groups who talk about the injustices such as break the silence. I just simply don’t believe that the feelings of Israeli citizens, dialogue with Israel, or the actions of Hamas have any precedents over ending the genocide & apartheid & I also believe that ultimately the responsibility of ending the genocide & apartheid falls on the ones doing it not

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Anonymous OP 11w

The ones surviving it & to say other wise is a non starter. I have the same views that Nelson Mandela had regarding the ANC & its violence. He refused to make it a priority or even really address it at all until the apartheid in South Africa ended & once it ended he then allowed trials & held the ANC members who harmed innocent civilians to account but that didn’t happen until after the apartheid was over

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Anonymous OP 11w

That happened after the cost of maintaining the apartheid got to costly between the resistance from the ANC & probably more importantly mass boycotting from the world. Which many countries didn’t participate in until the U.S. did

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Anonymous OP 11w

and i would say you have a really thorough understanding of south africa, but israel and palestine are a different place in a different time with a completely different history. i would urge to you base your opinions of what might work in israel and palestine on specific information about israel and palestine, rather than your knowledge about south africa, because the differences do matter

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Anonymous #1 11w

for instance, the current system in the west bank wasn’t put in place with the intention of apartheid. the separation between areas a, b, and c were meant to be temporary while a peace process was underway and a Palestinian state was established. but the peace process fell apart (you can read all about that in the timeline), settlers moved in, violence intensified, and israel started building walls and checkpoints in between the different areas

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Anonymous #1 11w

and as the government became more right wing, they placed more and more restrictions on palestinians and less and less on settlers

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Anonymous #1 11w

and now today there’s a system of almost total ethnonational separation, separate court systems, separate roads, settler terrorists running rampant, and no viable peace plan in place

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Anonymous #1 11w

obviously the original intention doesn’t make the injustice less bad. but it does affect how the system can actually be dismantled

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Anonymous #1 11w

and now you have israelis who call the wall between the west bank and israeli proper “the separation barrier” and don’t want to take it down because terror attacks in israel from the west bank were reduced by something like 95% after it was built. and palestinians calling it the “apartheid wall” because of all the injustice and restriction on their freedom of movement. and they don’t ever talk to each other, so they just think the other side hates them

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Anonymous #1 11w

I’m sorry but I have to say I do find your comment about the difference between South Africa & Israel a bit ironic because the white South African who grew up during apartheid who I referenced at the beginning of this legit said the exact same thing you did as far as what Israel’s goals were with their apartheid in the West Bank. The difference is he said that’s what South Africans were told & believed regarding their apartheid & that again Zionst say & repeat the same things in regards to

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Anonymous OP 11w

please read the timeline

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Anonymous #1 11w

and remember that one of the biggest differences between the west bank and south africa is israel itself has a diverse, integrated population that is 20% arab

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Anonymous OP 11w

Israel but Americans don’t see it that way due to the way they’re taught about South Africa & it’s apartheid. So I just found it funny you would do exactly that. Also you’re advocating for something we’ve been doing to no effect & has historically never worked elsewhere while claiming something that has worked somewhere else & hasn’t been tried at all in Israel won’t work

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Anonymous OP 11w

again please read the things i sent

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Anonymous #1 11w

I will read them when I get a chance later today. I do have a question why do you believe boycotting Israel like we did South Africa something we have yet to try can’t or won’t work but continuing the dialogue & appeal to their feelings something we’ve been doing for decades with 0 tangible results other then more settlements & the society moving further right as a whole is will eventually work if we keep it up.

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Anonymous OP 11w

i think that boycotting settlements in the west bank is a good strategy. but i think boycotting israel overall is unfeasible given how globalized the economy has become, and i think it fundamentally misunderstands the israeli worldview. again not saying this worldview is correct but it is what they see, especially on the right— to them, they’re in an existential struggle. whatever happens to their economy, they’re gonna keep fighting

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Anonymous #1 11w

there’s a famous quote from golda meir that says something like if we have a choice between being dead and pitied or alive and hated, we’ll choose alive and hated. and bibi’s favorite propagandistic stand is to say “if we must stand alone, we will stand alone”. like why give him another propaganda moment? but the part that i think that is genuinely counterproductive is the academic and cultural boycotts and when anti-normalization stretches to like “never talk to israelis”

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Anonymous #1 11w

south africa’s white population was primarily concerned with their own comfort. israeli jews are concerned with their own survival and ability to not be controlled by a non-jewish government. they don’t care how uncomfortable they get

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Anonymous #1 11w

also living in israel is already uncomfortable, you get rockets and missiles launched at you all the time. if people wanted comfort they wouldn’t live there

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Anonymous #1 11w

I highly disagree. I think the notion that that not giving Israel money support won’t change anything so we should keep giving Israel in money & support seems like a dumb way to try & justify continuing funding & support of Israel. I know you genuinely believe that Israeli unique people in their genocide & apartheid but other people regardless of their history had the same beliefs & reason and genuinely believed they were in an existential crisis, worth was fighting for until the end

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Anonymous OP 11w

regardless of how untrue that was. Also the economy isn’t too globalized. South Africa had a globalized economy a few countries boycotted before the U.S. which didn’t end the apartheid but once the U.S. did it the rest of the West fell inline. I think that would be no different now. The U.S. has be protecting Israel from any repercussions from western powers for decades so once the U.S. decides to boycott them the vast majority of countries will to. Regardless of what you believe I genuinely

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Anonymous OP 11w

Don’t think the vast majority of Israel’s would rather end up looking like & living like Cubans then end the genocide & apartheid & if they would all rather end up that way I don’t see how continuing it would be possible without the unmuted support of the western world primarily the U.S.

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Anonymous OP 11w

give money and support is different than boycott. i don’t think we should be giving israel military support

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Anonymous OP 11w

Yeah imagine how much more uncomfortable not having the iron dome is?

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Anonymous #1 11w

Also again we have been having the dialogue placing the feelings of Israeli’s first for decades, and here we are

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Anonymous OP 11w

… yeah exactly that’s why israelis are the way they are bc the iron dome is the only thing protecting them from all the rockets and missiles raining down on their houses and neighborhoods. like they see the rockets blow up in the sky every time

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Anonymous OP 11w

we’ve been placing the feelings of Americans first for decades

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Anonymous #1 11w

besides they invented the iron dome, we pay for cartridges in exchange for access to the technology for us

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Anonymous #1 11w

israel survived without american support for the first 30-40 ish years of its existence and they’re much more powerful now than they were then

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Anonymous OP 11w

and understanding israel psychology and how they will respond to things isn’t “putting their feelings first” it’s just good strategy

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Anonymous OP 11w

no if a person wants to boycott israel because they don’t like israel they can go ahead! but if a person wants to boycott israel because they think it will convince israel to change then they should know it won’t work

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Anonymous OP 11w

But if you genuinely believe that Israel doesn’t need anyone & is powerfully enough to take care of themselves on their own then why are you against boycotting & cutting all funding. They don’t need anyone & it makes no difference anyways according to you

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Anonymous OP 11w

… i’m against boycotting as a peace strategy because i don’t think it will work. i’m not against boycotting in general

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Anonymous OP 11w

we haven’t though

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Anonymous #1 11w

We have had not stop dialogue, validated their feelings regarding the region & said West Bank settlements bad don’t do that treat Palestinians in Gaza better please,for decades so what do you mean we haven’t done that. Also I don’t believe a boycott will make Israeli less radical or anything. My belief is we should boycott any country doing genocide or apartheid regardless of what that country does in response simply because genocide & apartheid are really bad. It’s honestly that simple to me

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Anonymous OP 11w

The peace thing is more see because I believe that a global boycott will force Israel to end the apartheid & genocide although I don’t think that will automatically create peace. But I don’t believe you can actively talking about peace & take meaningful steps to peace while doing a genocide & maintaining an apartheid. Idk seems pretty straightforward to me

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Anonymous OP 11w

once again, we haven’t had any real dialogue, we just have been manipulating the situation for our own benefit. that’s why we our government says “please stop” to their government in public and then not in private and there’s no dialogue with the people. as for the last part ok that’s fair that’s a good reason to boycott. but please please once again read the things i sent

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Anonymous #1 11w

Idk what I’m avoiding by using the words genocide & apartheid. Do you not believe Israel is an apartheid that’s committing a genocide? Again it’s simple boycott any and all countries that are engaging in apartheid or genocide which Israel is doing both. You can’t talking about peace or take meaningful steps towards it while doing a genocide or maintaining an apartheid so any dialogue is only theatre until the genocide & apartheid end. Also I again don’t believe Israel is unique in how it should

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Anonymous OP 11w

Be handled. Everything I said about Israel I fully believe we should do & should apply to the UAE as well who’s also funding & doing a genocide with the RSF in Sudan. Again I just simply don’t believe in any type of funding or support whatsoever to any & all countries engineering in genocide or apartheid

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Anonymous OP 11w

*Engaging in genocide or apartheid

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Anonymous OP 11w

i deleted that comment because i regretted how i worded it but as someone who grew up with a Holocaust educator for a parent, the word “genocide”cannot be a reason not to engage with the specific contributing factors of a particular situation and the minds of the perpetrators. you still have to try

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Anonymous #1 11w

and whether israel is “unique” is our main disagreement and i am once again saying PLEASE learn the specifics of this situation

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Anonymous #1 11w

I mean I’ve read multiple books on Israel & have read the works of historians & scholars. Some Jewish some not. I’m not someone who heard about Israel & Palestine for the first time on 10/7 but again I will read more. Idk why I need to treat Israel specially compared to someone else doing the same thing. Genocide & apartheid are bad always no matter who does it & people who commit genocide & apartheid should receive 0 support regardless of their justification for it. Idk why that’s such a hard

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Anonymous OP 11w

Concept for liberal Zionst although I think that’s the issue with liberal Zionist. They understand that what Israel is doing is wrong but they have a block they keeps them from fully acknowledging that the wrong thing is genocide & apartheid & that anyone doing genocide or apartheid should receive absolutely 0 support in any way at unless until they end said genocide & apartheid

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Anonymous OP 11w

you need to treat everyone doing the same thing differently because it all comes from different people, different histories, different ideologies, and different circumstances

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Anonymous OP 11w

It’s not like I’m treating Israel differently since again I bar for bar feel the same way about the UAE although I don’t you’d argue that it’s wrong to fully cut off support to the UAE for doing a genocide

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Anonymous #1 11w

and im not asking you to give any kind of support to israel whatsoever, we were debating the interpretation of a poll

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Anonymous #1 11w

Yeah I just don’t believe I should treat or baby any who supports genocide or apartheid or anyone who denies it or tries to minimize it. Also the only thing that’s unique is the history regarding Jews but the reasoning & justifications aren’t unique. Plenty of Zionist use the same justification that the Nazis used, and the same justification that white South Africans used & the same justification that white slavers used & the same justification that pro segregationist used. All of them claimed

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Anonymous OP 11w

To do it out of fear & protection form the said group living under their actions. They claimed it had to be done for the survival of their people. That’s not unique rhetoric. My people have also been the victims of genocide & are largely still oppressed systemically, especially in the Western world. So maybe I’m just biased in my belief that all genocides & apartheids are bad & those committing, supporting or justifying them shouldn’t be treated specially

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Anonymous OP 11w

but i’m not asking you to treat them specially

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Anonymous #1 11w

look please just read the timeline and about the work of the peace activists i sent. arguing with me is just a waste of both our time now

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Anonymous #1 11w

You’re arguing against the boycott which as I stated more then steams from my belief that no country doing an apartheid or genocide should receive anything whatsoever & not engaging with the fact that Israel is an apartheid state doing a genocide & are instead acting like they’re doing a bad thing but not on that level of bad so the best course of action is to see their side and reason with them. Idk that’s special treatment considering their actions in my personal opinion.

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Anonymous OP 11w

once you stated that’s your reason i said that’s a vaild reason to boycott (multiple times)

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Anonymous #1 11w

i’m not telling you that YOU have to do anything. you can boycott israel. you don’t have to see things from anyone else’s perspective. i’m just telling you that there is a ton of evidence that in this particular case empathy works to reduce extremism and could help make everything better. if you don’t feel you can engage in that, that’s okay

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Anonymous #1 11w

i mean my main point was you posted a poll and an interpretation of it that seemed pretty hopeless so i tried to show how actually there is more hope than that poll makes it look. if you don’t want hope then that’s okay

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Anonymous #1 11w

sometimes you just need to be really fucking mad about things and that’s valid

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Anonymous #1 11w

I’m back and have fully read everything you sent

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Anonymous OP 11w

ok im glad you did

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Anonymous #1 11w

ooh if you have one more in you this is a really cool framework that came out of work like this https://www.2s1h.org/en?d=ltr

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Anonymous #1 11w

Yeah I can read one more. Ironically right after I said that i read all the reading that you sent me I got a FaceTime from on of my close friends who lives in another country. We FaceTime like every other day & she’s constantly telling me I need to leave America because it’s like Germany in the 1930’s

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Anonymous OP 11w

Omg lol that’s so funny

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Anonymous #1 11w

Also lowkey yikes that your friend is kinda right

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Anonymous #1 11w

She’s Jewish & always reminds me of how things started for her people & what happened to the ones who ignored the early warning signs & choice to stay. She’s very serious about me leaving especially since I’m a POC as well

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Anonymous OP 11w

Yeah I’m Jewish too and I see it too, I grew up learning that same history and lately it’s been like 👀👀

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Anonymous OP 11w

One thing I found somewhat ironic regarding the reading is that the one thing you linked me with the multiple different peace resources featured some that I use as sources like B’Tselem or that I’ve donated to like PCRF or that I’m just aware of & support like Stand Together etc. I guess it’s just ironic to see that we rely on or look to some of the same sources & groups although it shouldn’t be surprising

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Anonymous OP 11w

Lol I think we’re closer in opinion than we thought at first

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Anonymous OP 11w

Yeah definitely and I hope you and your family are doing okay

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Anonymous #1 11w

Probably. I will say after reading everything that you sent I’ve come to that same conclusion. It didn’t change my opinion it just made me think our opinions are most closely then I believed

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Anonymous #1 11w

Thank you & same to you

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Anonymous OP 11w

That’s okay, we can disagree. I feel like we both want the same thing but see different ways to get there

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Anonymous OP 11w

Thank you

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Anonymous OP 11w

I didn’t disagree with anything I read really & like I said earlier we seem to support some of the same groups & use the same sources

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Anonymous OP 11w

Yeah it’s kind of funny lol. I guess in my mind boycotting would mean boycotting the kinds of people who are in those groups too and the work they do and I’m not willing to do that

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Anonymous #1 11w

I genuinely think you’re right about that. After reading what you sent I think the biggest disagreement might really be the order of operations ironically

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Anonymous #1 11w

I think the parts of Israeli society doing that work need support in reaching the rest. But I also see a lot of your points too

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Anonymous #1 11w

It’s funny because I think you thought that boycotting included groups that I know & actually support & I thought that your talk of dialogue & appealing to emotions ment doing what we’ve been doing for decades because we have been having dialogue & appealing to emotions but in a very different way then you ment

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Anonymous OP 11w

Yes exactly

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Anonymous #1 11w

I’m so glad we figured this out lol

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Anonymous OP 11w

Whoda thunk

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Anonymous OP 11w

i agree but i also think they’re essential to ending it in the first place

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Anonymous #1 11w

I think they play a valuable role currently while it’s still going on & it will take a variety of things to end it. Peace groups are important it helping with that.

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Anonymous #1 11w

so semi disagreement? idk

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Anonymous OP 11w

Totally fair. I think I just wish the outside world spent more time and effort supporting those groups and less time fighting over slogans that mean different things to different people if that makes sense

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Anonymous #1 11w

Kinda sorta not really but maybe a tiny little bit disagreement lol

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Anonymous OP 11w

lmao

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Anonymous #1 11w

did your Jewish friend ever tell you about machloket l’shem shamayim bc i feel like we’re there :)

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Anonymous #1 11w

lol probably but we talk so much about so many different things that I can’t say for sure but think I’m familiar with the phrase & if it’s what I think it is then yes I agree it took us a while to get there but I think we’re there as well :)

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Anonymous OP 11w

yeah i think you got it :)

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Anonymous #1 11w

lol happy to hear it. It genuinely makes me happy which is what we need with how insane the world is & America in general 😬

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Anonymous OP 11w

100% this actually made my day

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Anonymous #1 11w

also hello to the people who read our whole massive debate and started upvoting when we found common ground :) hope you are having a good night too

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Anonymous #1 11w

Same made my day as well. Also hi to everyone who read through all of it and I hope you are all having a good night as well!!

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