Anonymous #1 12w

I determine the value of (human) life by its ability to experience suffering, actually

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Anonymous OP 12w

So a person who can’t feel pain is less than other people who can?

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Anonymous #1 12w

Hey, fun fact! A person who can’t feel pain can infact suffer still!

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Anonymous #1 12w

Debatabley, even more than someone who can feel pain! Thats why we (at least should) provide special attention and resources to people with CIP

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Anonymous OP 12w

Why would one’s ability to suffer determine their value. That seems completely arbitrary

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Anonymous #1 12w

Thanks for changing the goalpost, but sure! Because I believe the most moral thing to do in life is reduce average public suffering to a minimum and increase average public quality of life to a maximum! It is why I would put more resources to say, feeding the starved impoverished people than giving any aid to a billionaire.

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Anonymous #1 12w

It is inherently more valuable to society to do this, and therefore I put more value onto people suffering.

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Anonymous #4 12w

So, would one be forced to come out and declare they were raped in order to have an abortion?

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Anonymous OP 12w

Now you’re moving away from the individual itself and saying that you are motivated by a statistical goal. You could just end people who are severely depressed or have some form of disorder that makes their life perceptively worse for them while also getting rid of billionaires and you could end up in the same place, so why not do that?

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Anonymous #1 12w

A false analogy, someone severely depressed does not inherently hold potential harm to others, while fetus’ do

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Anonymous OP 12w

I’d hope that disclose that to their doctor and get a rape kit if possible. But in theory yes. Although you’d need a legal standard better than that. I live in TN and there currently are no exceptions.

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Anonymous OP 12w

Also, if your definition of suffering also includes mental and psychological, you could have someone who feels no physical pain and is perhaps too mentally capacitated, such as someone on the verge of brain dead, is less of human value than anyone else?

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Anonymous #4 12w

Thats the problem though. There is no legal standard that would actually do anything. If I require a rape kit, that means the victim is FORCED to out themselves as a victim to a stranger within 3 days in order to not be forced to carry a rapists baby If we dont require a rape kit, Someone simply lies about being raped and nothing changes. Either you force a traumatic event upon a victim, or you pass a law that does nothing

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Anonymous OP 12w

A fetus cannot intentionally harm someone. A person who is severely depressed may find it necessary to harm others in some circumstances. Birthing pains are certainly expected, as are a melange of possible issues. By definition birth can cause harm physically and mentally, does that mean it is a bad thing?

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Anonymous #1 12w

First of all, mental disability does not mean one cannot experience suffering as deep as anyone else- A child can suffer just as much as I can if not more. Secondly, If there was some sort of situation on mass that brain dead people or near brain dead people endangered the lives of non-brain dead individuals (good luck making a real example for that, again false anology) I would choose to save the non brain individuals, yes.

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Anonymous OP 12w

You misread. I meant brain-dead individuals who cannot suffer, being as less of human value.

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Anonymous #1 12w

A fetus inherently causes harm, and increases risk of death. Providing a medical procedure to prevent death of a mother is infact not equivalent to shooting a depressed teen. Secondly, thats why i think it should be something called *a choice*. Notice how im not advocating for mass abortions, but the ability to choose whether that harm is necessary for oneself

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Anonymous #1 12w

Would you choose to save the life of a brain dead individual or a non brain dead individual, if one living caused the other to die?

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Anonymous OP 12w

What do you mean by causes harm? Alterations to the body to prepare for birth and to develop the fetus are normal, and alterations after are also normal. Why would that make it any less valuable?

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Anonymous #1 12w

It causes mental distress, pain, and potential risk of death. Going outside causes harm. Our bodies are also completely prepared for it. Doesn’t stop sunburns

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Anonymous OP 12w

We need to force the victims out tbh. A doctor can help them. I get it’s hard but sadly that’s something their doctor and therapist NEED TO KNOW the day it happens if possible and definitely within a week.

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Anonymous #4 12w

You don’t actually have to do anything

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Anonymous #4 12w

Bit of a tangent here- So, are you also pro forced vaccinations?

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Anonymous #2 12w

I meant as a society. Victims of abuse are so scared to mention it and it’s detrimental. I get not publicly but your doctor needs to know immediately.

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Anonymous OP 12w

Since they are both of equal value, it would be good to take into consideration both the families. Since the brain-dead person is actively dying already I think the medical personnel would be more likely to choose that, although if the non brain-dead decided they wanted to die for other they could but should expect pushback from their family. It would be disingenuous if I only chose for both of those families, but if they couldn’t agree upon a solution it would be a sorrowing elect of the bdead.

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Anonymous #1 12w

A bit of a fantastical scenario don’t you think?

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Anonymous #4 12w

I’m just saying the idea of forcing another innocent human to use their bodies un consensually is akin to actual abuse

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Anonymous #2 12w

I get it but it’s different in this scenario I don’t want them publicly outed but if they can report a rape to their doctor within 24 hours it needs to be done. It’s genuinely too important. The damage done by keeping it inside is far worse than outing yourself to a medical professional who genuinely can help

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Anonymous #1 12w

I agree- it IS a fantastical scenario It’s pretty strange you led us down this route, considering I was talking about fetus’ originally and you seemingly wanted to equate that to brain dead individuals

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Anonymous #4 12w

And forcing people to out themselves to a stranger (a doctor) is infact just as potentially psychologically damaging

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Anonymous OP 12w

I mean there’s a lot that fall under that. Going outside really shouldn’t cause mental distress or pain unless the heat and light is a trigger for some traumatic event. The funny thing about potential risk of death is that really most things can be a risk given the right things happen. That shouldn’t deter you from eating food that you might choke on, or driving a car to a far-away worksite that you might crash on the way.

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Anonymous #4 12w

But again- Im not against providing help to rape victims. I am against forcing rape victims to provide proof of their rape, because that is quite honestly insane

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Anonymous OP 12w

Your argument was originally involving suffering, so I provided an example where there wouldn’t be, and this has led us here lol.

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Anonymous #1 12w

You’re so right! It’s almost like we should allow people to make the choice if whether its worth the risk or not…. Oh wait, thats the entire point of pro-choice

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Anonymous #1 12w

Your example was disingenuous and not at all comparable to the relationship between a fetus and mother

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Anonymous OP 12w

Although when it comes to the fetus, as long as there is only a risk and not a guarantee, it really shouldn’t be a question of whether or not to abort, when comparing between complete and fatal death, and an expected risk for fatal death, which isn’t always the case.

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Anonymous #1 12w

So, if theres a 99% chance for death, it still shouldnt be aborted right?

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Anonymous #1 12w

If so- you are insane. If not- what percentage chance of death is acceptable for you for it to be legal to have an abortion

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Anonymous OP 12w

If it gets to that point that there is so little of an opportunity for life then I would allow for them to make considerations. Obviously a split-second decision is going to be different than if there is ample time. Are there any pre-natal issues that can be indicated and whose risk can be calculated?

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Anonymous #1 12w

Jesus fucking christ- THE CALCULATIONS AND STATISTICS ARE BUILT UPON THE DEATHS OF MOTHERS. WHICH ACTIVELY CHANGES BASED ON THE ENVIRONMENT, TECHNOLOGY, FUNDING, AND ILLNESSES WE CANNOT PERFECTLY MEASURE

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Anonymous #1 12w

ANY RESTRICTION YOU PLACE ON ABORTION ACTIVELY INCREASES THAT RISK OF DEATH, BECAUSE NOW THERES MORE RISKS OF POTENTIAL MISJUDGEMENTS

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Anonymous OP 12w

No it’s not. Yes it hurts but medical professionals knowing it’s important. Keeping rape to yourself is a significant source of depression. Keeping it to yourself is a fast track to suicide. It’s hard but if possible it needs to be disclosed to a doctor.

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Anonymous OP 12w

Chill. I don’t know why this was the reaction to asking about whether there are issues. I did look some stuff up so it seems there are. Although you said “not perfectly measure” so I’m guessing the margin of error is negligible assuming these are professionals doing the work and who understand the difference between correlation and causality.

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Anonymous OP 12w

How do you know? And what do you mean by misjudgments? As in someone’s interpretation of the risk?

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Anonymous #1 12w

I have this reaction because people like you can actively refute the right to abortion without understanding even how the statistics are measured. People like you actively vote to put restrictions on abortions that have ALREADY caused the deaths of women and children. America has some of the highest mother childbirth mortality rates in the world compared to other developed countries. Does that not scream that *something* is wrong(

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Anonymous OP 12w

Well a lot of things could be wrong. Nutrition, general health that can contribute. It may not necessarily be abortion restrictions, but if our diet increases cardiovascular problems, that can increase the risk for mother fatalities due to force exertion on birth.

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Anonymous #4 12w

Thats between a patient and their therapist- not a doctor. A doctor does not need to be convinced by a victims story story to do their job

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Anonymous #1 12w

https://www.texastribune.org/2024/11/01/nevaeh-crain-death-texas-abortion-ban-emtala/ Certainly seems like the abortion restrictions are causing death to me

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Anonymous OP 12w

STD risk, hormonal tracking, the quickest way to have in depth and errorless continuous tracking for a potential pregnancy which in my state TN you only have 5 weeks to abort so that’s a critical window. I have my reasons for saying doctor and therapist. I agree therapy too but it’s far more medically relevant than you realize.

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Anonymous #4 12w

So, youre for forced vaccines then? Never got an answer on that

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Anonymous #1 12w

Sounds like OP definitely woulda been the type to be pro slavery because people of color looked different

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Anonymous OP 12w

Well that’s what’s required by the government in most states because abortion in most states is the equivalent of murdering your child.

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Anonymous #4 12w

So, you ARE pro mandatory vaccines then?

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Anonymous OP 12w

I think most people should get them but I’m not for forcing them on people but it should bar you from certain things like public school for your kids. I don’t deny that science. I just don’t agree with abortion. I’d never abort my kid but again I also see the need for medical and rape exceptions. The problem is you can’t get those if you don’t concede that a victim of rape needs to be forced to out themselves. It’s a catch 22 silence means you kinda have to keep the child in my state

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Anonymous OP 12w

No offense, but that seems like a failing of the first two hospitals to admit accordingly to infections which if they had admitted her to stay would’ve likely led to the operations at the third hospital with more time to spare. Maybe if the third hospital used a recording image scan rather than bedside that could’ve made the necessary operation occur quicker.

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Anonymous #4 12w

You’re actively pro forcing people to out themselves because it “helps society”. Vaccines help society. Ofc, they could have issues or be rushed and have complications, or one could be immunocompromised, but on average it helps society. Therefore, you should infact be pro forced vaccines

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Anonymous #1 12w

Perhaps- but you know what else majorly slowed them down? Abortion bans. Texas’s infamously restrictive abortion bans. There are hundreds of stories, go find one youll not have problems with

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Anonymous OP 12w

Even if there were cases that pointed to explicit policy within abortion bans, how do you differentiate an error in the concept of the abortion ban and the quality of its implementation?

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Anonymous #1 12w

I don’t, because that requires a lot of data built upon the deaths of dead mothers.

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Anonymous OP 12w

Outing themselves for rape to a medical professional and therapist is important for their safety not society. Also point out silence is what the rapist wants so he can have more victims. It’s predatory. Think about that she stays silent he gets to rape someone else. It’s detrimental to her and it’s sad women get put in that awful situation but every single time report it to a medical professional and a therapist. Its important. If my daughter when I have one discloses that she’s been raped

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Anonymous #4 12w

I’m dragging her to the doctor and getting her a therapist immediately. It is need to know information.

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Anonymous #4 12w

And forcing innocent people to use their bodies against their will is equally as harmful

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Anonymous #6 12w

“Clump of cells” is a simplified analogy. You should be able to recognize this, but it seems you took it very literally. The zygote divides and progresses as an embryo in several different stages which eventually resemble a hollow ball of cells. The neural system is not substantially formed until the third trimester, at which point less than 5% of abortions happen, overwhelmingly due to life threatening complications. There is the science.

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Anonymous #6 12w

You have to know so little to say what you just said

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Anonymous #5 12w

I would say once the primitive nervous system has been formed (third trimester) and the body axes are visibly differentiated. At that point, the fetus can feel pain, among other sensations. Essentially when it becomes sentient. Most liberals/leftists do not support voluntary abortion in the third trimester for this reason. Women who do get them during the third trimester need them to survive life threatening complications.

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Anonymous #6 12w

… what?

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Anonymous #2 12w

Use their bodies in what way? The person who can track an STD and pregnancy from a rapist is winning if you stay silent. It’s imperative to track and have as accurate a profile as possible. Maybe it’s that my grand parents were doctors and every little thing we were raised to track but I don’t see how that’s harmful. Hard to do, a shit situation that in the moment sucks ass sure. But harmful no. What’s harmful is keeping that to yourself and not doing everything possible to protect your future.

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Anonymous #4 12w

I understand your perspective, but fundamentally you cannot and should not force someone to disclose something like that. It is completely their choice. To do so would be to violate their autonomy, regardless of what you perceive as outweighing that autonomy.

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Anonymous #4 12w

My issue with this is youre punitive focused. I am recovery focused. The rapist should be held accountable, and rape should be prevented yes. But I do not believe we should hold punitive justice over the recovery of victims. Should they speak out? Yes. Should we force them? No. Either way, the fundamental difference in mindset between us is this You see it as a bad guy winning I see it as a victim healing.

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Anonymous OP 12w

I see it as we have a conservative Supreme Court. Abortion and exceptions are 60 years away. You have to bite the bullet.

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Anonymous #7 12w

There is a very big difference between sentience and the ability to feel pain/see/touch the world around you

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Anonymous #4 12w

If someone has to bite the bullet, its going to be the “representatives” not actually representing the people

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Anonymous #4 12w

Broader context abortion laws

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Anonymous OP 12w

Unlikely to happen with a conservative Supreme Court you will always get conservative friendly rulings even on congressional actions.

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Anonymous #4 12w

Oh i was implying violence, not very seriously Either way, I refuse to settle for a lesser of 2 evils and instead will scream at my representatives and people near me

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Anonymous #4 12w

“potential” means not yet established. you just admitted a fetus is not yet alive

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