no, sexual dimorphism is real, and there is real disparity in the perpetration of sexual assault along gender lines.

1

I’m not saying it’s a biological difference and I’m not a radfem, I’m saying that the way men are socialized causes this problem but there are things we can do to fix it

1

Anonymous #2 8w

also, this post doesn’t claim that there is no societal problem that contributes to SA, DV and the like.

1

Anonymous #2 8w

I mean I don’t really agree with the statement that all men are guilty (although I do think a lot of, if not most, men are contributing to toxic masculinity whether they mean to or not), I just saw an opportunity to say my piece and took it

4

well considering those are two gender categories that would generally be mutually exclusive, i’d have to disagree unless you’d like to elaborate.

1

Anonymous OP 8w

you have a point, and I hope my comment didn’t read otherwise. I just find it challenging to see rhetoric like that because in my view it’s actively harmful and fuels antifeminist groups. I’m a man and narrowly escaped the alt-right anti-sjw anti-feminist pipeline back in middle school, and really feel that I wouldn’t have been so close to believing sexist lies without such harmful rhetoric being present and somewhat commonplace.

8

Anonymous #4 8w

Women seeking equality shouldn’t have to lie to placate men. Society and men should do and be better.

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Anonymous #2 8w

I agree with you. As a guy, I can recognize that there are problems in a male dominated society. However, when people address the issue by make sweeping generalizations, I no longer want to support their ideas since they are attacking me. The lack of nuance in a lot of these seems counter active to the goals they profess

1

Anonymous #2 8w

I agree, but thats not how you build an effective social movement. Misandrist statements are a valid reaction to the frustration that comes from living in a patriarchal society. They don’t make men more sympathetic, and they help radicalize young boys and men. Think about the divergence between MLK and Malcom X. Malcolm was right, but MLK’s message was better received. Which was more valuable to the civil rights movement?

4

Anonymous #2 8w

For feminism to regain its early effectiveness, it needs to illustrate how the patriarchy harms men and invite them to join in its dismantling.

5

Anonymous #5 8w

I hear you, but you have to recall that a lot of this argumentation comes from lived experience of being repeatedly hurt by men, and then repeatedly told by men/society that it’s not a problem, or that you deserved it. When someone is failed and hurt by so many men, I have a hard time faulting the conclusion that all men contribute, and an even harder time trying to dictate how that gets vocalized.

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Anonymous #4 8w

you are not familiar with MLK, and his messages were hardly well-received.

1

Anonymous #2 8w

I’m very familiar with MLK, and his messaging was the backbone of the civil rights movement.

1

Anonymous #4 8w

mb i thought you were doing the thing where “I have a dream” is the entirety of MLK’s contribution. but like by 1966 MLK was widely unpopular, and was a very vocal critic of american foreign policy, as well as a direct critic of white moderates.

1

Anonymous #2 8w

That makes sense and I sympathize with how they feel. Nevertheless, I believe the prevalence of blaming all men is inaccurate and detrimental to their cause, ultimately acting as an ineffective way of garnering support. I used my personal experiences to illustrate this.

1

Anonymous #5 8w

I’m generally inclined to believe it is a significantly less prevalent view than we see, with many statements espousing such belief being signal boosted by conservative outlets to promote a particular narrative about feminism.

1

Anonymous #2 8w

Yes ofc MLK was not 100% well-received, my point stands that he was a more effective organizer than Malcolm because he viewed the civil rights movement as an interracial community rather than black vs white.

1

Anonymous #2 8w

Lets also recognize the difference between “lying to placate” and making inflammatory, unnuanced remarks.

1

Anonymous #4 8w

When I talk about lying to placate men, I refer directly to the bear thing. I’m not saying that to not call all men rapists is a placating lie. the man or bear thing has a (somewhat) clear answer as to what is statistically safer, and to say otherwise would be a lie. I’ll concede it probably would have been more effective to frame it as “Wow, statistically a woman is safer alone in the woods with a bear than a man, how fucked up is that?” but idk man i like to let women speak.

8

Anonymous #2 8w

also, you’re kind of implying that women have an obligation to serve as ambassadors for feminism at all times, which does feel a bit bullshit when we’re saying that it’s wrong to generalize men.

5

Anonymous #2 8w

Idk what statistics you’re looking at unless you’re choosing black bears 😭

-2

Anonymous #2 8w

I would hope so. But such opinions aren’t just political propaganda. You can see plenty of people espousing similar rhetoric on this app (left-leaning as it is). People actually do hold these opinions, and even if they are in the minority, they nevertheless damage the reputation of the movement.

1

Anonymous #2 8w

They don’t, like I said misandry is a completely valid reaction to living in a patriarchal world. I don’t get upset when women “man-hate”, and I believe most men hold similar views whether they realize it or not (no father or brother is going to like their daughter’s/sister’s boyfriend off rip bc they know on some level men suck). This thread is specifically about how the conversation around sexual assault and men is framed, which is an issue of feminist messaging.

1

Anonymous #4 8w

hope you had this same energy over ACAB

1

Anonymous #2 8w

What a weird comparison 😭 is cop a gender?

1

Anonymous #4 8w

it’s the same messaging thing, where a generalization results from people being systemically hurt, and then a movement/opinion forms as a result of that systemic hurt

1

Anonymous #2 8w

I see your point, but you have to recognize the difference between a profession and a gender. Also, men are victims of patriarchy and women are perpetrators of it. The comparison fails

0

Anonymous #2 8w

i mean you could similarly turn to black lives matter and all the conservative punditry about how it’s bad messaging/bad optics

5

Anonymous #2 8w

You’re grasping for straws here dawg just say misandry is harmful

-2

Anonymous #4 8w

my argument isn’t that misandry isn’t harmful you fucking idiot, jesus christ. I’m pointing out that many movements can be criticized for their ineffective/inflammatory messaging.

6

Anonymous #2 8w

Correct, that doesn’t invalidate all critiques tho.

0

Anonymous #5 8w

i wasn’t trying to look cool i was genuinely exasperated with someone straw-manning my argument

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Anonymous #2 8w

#4 seems a lot more chill than you ngl im more open to what he has to say

4

Anonymous #4 8w

i mean we don’t even really disagree on the base question here in regard to SA, DV etc being societal problems. I just think that attributing a fringe misandrist view to feminism as a whole is misguided and if anything does a disservice to feminism.

6

Anonymous #4 8w

Fym women are perpetrators of the patriarchy

4

Anonymous #5 8w

ok? i mean #4 and I agree on the majority of this, we’re just in the weeds about the relevance/productiveness of criticizing messaging that comes from a fringe portion of the feminist movement as if it’s some major problem big feminism needs to address

6

Anonymous #2 8w

Misandry isn’t fringe, esp if you’re under 30. I agree it’s a disservice to attribute it to feminism, but bad actors are gonna jump on the chance to do so. Also a lot of misandrist voices claim to be feminist voices too so the attribution doesn’t come out of nowhere

0

Anonymous OP 8w

Omg how aren’t they? Purity culture, enforcing gender norms, raising daughters to be wives, every conservative woman ever. Women SAing men is tied to patriarchy. Hell, look in the comment section of any video of a woman proposing to a man and see how women uphold patriarchy.

-1

Anonymous #4 8w

misandry is absolutely fringe lmao. systemic misandry essentially doesn’t exist in any form comparable to systemic misogyny. there are very few, if any, significantly powerful misandrist institutions.

4

Anonymous OP 8w

Women are patriarchy’s most important soldiers. Why oppress women when they do it to themselves?

-2

Anonymous #4 8w

any framing that describes men as victims of the patriarchy without acknowledging that women are victims of the patriarchy to an exponentially higher degree is dishonest.

6

Anonymous #2 8w

Idk what “fringe” means to you but it has nothing to do with systemic power.

0

Anonymous #2 8w

Women are more victimized I’ve said that many times. But to act like patriarchy is only done by men towards women is a very narrow and uneducated take

-2

Anonymous #4 8w

misandry does not occur in society in the same way that misogyny does, because misandry essentially only exists through interpersonal prejudice, rather than any form of institutional power. I can count the number of times I’ve experienced misandry on one fist. I doubt many women would be able to count the number of times they’ve experience misogyny on their hands.

10

Anonymous #2 8w

Seems like you disagree on the importance of misandry which is kinda the whole point of the conversation - so I’d say you don’t really agree with each other

-1

Anonymous #4 8w

Jesus fucking Christ

10

Anonymous #2 8w

Again, correct but that’s not what fringe means.

0

Anonymous #4 8w

when did i say that or act like that?

3

Anonymous #4 8w

well there’s not really any way to measure whether or not an idea like misandry is or isn’t fringe, so would you like to substantiate your claim that misandry is prevalent?

8

Anonymous #2 8w

OP did. You responded to my response to them.

-2

Anonymous #4 8w

I did not say that

5

Anonymous #2 8w

A fringe worldview is one that diverges from the mainstream. Misandry is a mainstream POV, especially in young, online, and educated spaces like this one. It has nothing to do with systemic power

0

Anonymous #4 8w

my b thought you were attributing that to me. in OP’s defense though, you really could have said “women are also perpetrators of the patriarchy” and all the confusion would have been avoided. your comment literally says “men are victims of patriarchy and women are perpetrators of it”. if you can’t see how someone could misread that as an assertion that men are the primary victims and women the primary perpetrators, that’s wild.

9

Anonymous OP 8w

You said “fym women are perpetrators of the patriarchy?” Do you believe they are or aren’t?

-1

Anonymous #4 8w

Evidence? or is that just true bc you said it is?

4

Anonymous #2 8w

Maybe if you don’t have any pre-existing understanding of feminism or patriarchy at all.

-2

Anonymous #4 8w

when people read your comments, they are interpreting your views. in interpreting someone’s views, you typically read the comments they write, and don’t assume what they mean based on your own personal view of the topic of discussion.

11

Anonymous #2 8w

Idk bro you have to be pretty blind to not see how misandry is mainstream. But they don’t do empirical studies on ts so I’ll give it to you

0

Anonymous #2 8w

Btw I literally did say “also”

-2

Anonymous #4 8w

But you’re relying on your subjective interpretation of your limited perception as dispositive about society as a whole, and then asserting it as fact.

2

Anonymous #4 8w

because a word at the beginning of the sentence is identical in meaning to placing it within the statement.

9

Anonymous #2 8w

You said it yourself, there’s no objective way to measure it. You can disagree if you so choose, but you’re choosing to blind yourself

0

Anonymous #2 8w

It was a valid way to discern that I wasn’t saying women aren’t more victimized by the patriarchy, yes.

-2

Anonymous #4 8w

(this is a genuine question that will probably sound condescending, i’m sorry) how am I the one blinding myself, rather than both of us? I don’t see how you’ve offered anything beyond proof by i said so.

3

Anonymous #4 8w

not it wasn’t. Also at the beginning of that statement serves as a connecting word, saying “this is another related remark”. when you say “men are also victims” you imply that there are other victims. if I say “also, people who don’t own dogs are victims of dog culture” is different logically distinct from “people who don’t own dogs are also victims of culture”

6

Anonymous #2 8w

You’re taking a statement without an objective measure (misandry is not a fringe worldview) and claiming that because it has no objective measure, it must be false.

0

Anonymous #4 8w

You’re claiming it must be true. This is arguably the same burden shift of “you can’t prove god isn’t real”. you made an affirmative about misandry, now substantiate it.

3

Anonymous #2 8w

not that it must be true, that it is true

3

Anonymous #2 8w

I believe misandry is mainstream because of the growing frequency of misandrist content online and in academic spaces, and the growing aversion that younger men have towards feminism (that is objectively measurable and true) that they attribute, in part or in whole, to misandry.

-1

Anonymous #2 8w

I could say the same to you. You made the original claim that misandry is fringe, provide evidence for it that fits the definition of fringe (structural power does not).

-1

Comment Deleted

0

Correct

-1

Anonymous #4 8w

and the only measurable (read: logically relevant) part is that men have an aversion towards feminism and attribute it to misandry. at best it’s hearsay. the overrepresentation of demonstrably fringe views in online spaces is a well-documented phenomenon, and the content you personally see cannot be taken as dispositive regarding society as a whole

8

Anonymous #2 8w

You need to get better at making comparisons bc what is this

1

Anonymous #4 8w

What if, instead of spending your energy complaining about women’s reactions to misogyny, you worked on finding constructive ways to prevent the misogyny from happening in the first place?

3

Anonymous #4 8w

I’m abstracting from the topic at hand to demonstrate the logic with a scenario that isn’t emotionally charged, it’s a way of illustrating arguments and logic without getting caught up in personal biases and defensive reflexes

1

Anonymous #5 8w

and I’d say that 2 seems far more levelheaded than 4, and I’d much rather hear what they have to say. what the fuck is the point? let’s not forget that 4 is the one who was trying to frame patriarchy as if women are somehow perpetrators and men are somehow victims when it’s, definitionally, a system of oppression designed for the benefit of men at the expense of women.

3

Anonymous #2 8w

Sure, but people under 30 increasingly exist in online spaces and the increasing presence of misandry and its effects in my personal conversations is real, but impossible to empirically prove. But young men holding more negative views towards feminism because of misandry is a tangible, consequential thing.

-1

Anonymous #7 8w

if he would’ve said that men are inadvertently harmed by patriarchy as well, then he would’ve been correct; but the claim that women are perpetrators and men are victims is fundamentally incorrect, and I’d go as far as to claim it’s bordering on that “manosphere” bullshit. misandry, while it may exist on an individual scale, is nowhere near as impactful as misogyny, purely based on scope and systematic support. misogyny is still codified in most countries…

10

Anonymous #4 8w

the tangible thing is young men claiming that misandry is the reason for their views

1

Anonymous #7 8w

Yeah I commented the above before it started going off the rails. #4 was cool an hour and a half ago 😔

9

Anonymous #5 8w

I think #4 has been arguing in bad faith this whole time

1

Anonymous OP 8w

nah, I had a convo with #4 in chat msgs, and can personally vouch that they’re not arguing in bad faith

1