Anonymous #1 3w

The other is that even if there was, yeah some people just have a physical advantage. Tall people have an unfair advantage at basketball over short people. We don’t ban tall people from playing basketball though

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Anonymous #1 3w

yes but we did create two different systems (men and women's sports) to give the opportunity to women to play. trans women are also women who deserve to play so i'm not saying the system works but either answer to me feels not exactly right

-1

Anonymous OP 3w

I don’t really think there is a good answer other than letting trans women play with their gender. There aren’t enough trans people to form distinct leagues so it’s either they can’t play sports or they play with men which is terrible for their wellbeing and unfair to them. Most professional sports leagues have rules about hormone levels for trans people anyways

7

Anonymous #2 3w

sports are stupid but the experiences players have aren't. my best friends were made from my team in college as it is for a lot of people growing up and onward

11

Anonymous moderatemonkey 3w

Sports is likely even lower relative to cis women. It’s kinda just a big red herring argument but ofc more studies can always take place. It’s just, in my opinion, the most unimportant thing to be arguing about when people just lost healthcare and food…

23

Anonymous #1 3w

Like this issue with sex has hurt athletes in the past. Just look at Foekje Dillema when we try to apply strict chromosome or hormone rules it sucks even for people who aren’t trans.

7

Anonymous OP 3w

Would a trans person on your team have interrupted that dynamic?

1

Anonymous moderatemonkey 3w

There’s also just an intensely wide variation of genetic predispositions in the current population of cis women and men to begin with. People are always going to have “unfair” genetic advantages in any sport which makes it even harder to account for genetic differences between cis women and trans women.

20

Anonymous #2 3w

i think i confused u. i have trans people on my own team and i think they should be there. i was trying to say that trans ppl deserve to be in sports because it gives them that community

12

Anonymous OP 3w

OH! My apologies. I wasn’t sure what you’d meant initially but yeah that’s awesome then :)

5

Anonymous #2 3w

i would like to clarify for anyone reading this that i only posted this because i wanted my questions to be answered because i do support trans rights and i want to 100% support them in sports too but i do tussle with it in my head sometimes

11

Anonymous moderatemonkey 3w

fair enough, i'm honestly just a stoner who likes to philosophize and wanted to get peoples thoughts on it. i didn't want to talk about it with my friends just because i didn't want it to get taken the wrong way (some of my friends are trans) when im only trying to learn and understand.

16

Anonymous OP 3w

Thank you for the clarification !

10

Anonymous #6 3w

especially if I'm paying to play, watch, or gambling on the outcome

-3

Tell me you didn't read what I said without saying it. I don't even gamble on sports but if I did I can see how allowing trans athletes changes the statistical outcome of who will win haha

-3

Anonymous #6 3w

Reread it and you compared trans people to “cheating” in sports based on a single anecdotal story from your childhood. Even worse than I previously thought. S Y B A U

10

Anonymous #6 3w

Reality is, there’s not really enough actual evidence to substantiate the idea that being trans gives you an “unfair” advantage. athats why when we see swimmers like Leah Thomas, the institute has the responsibility to vet them to standards they deem as fair. As fairness is an incredibly subjective concept

5

Anonymous #6 3w

Reality is, there’s not really enough actual evidence to substantiate the idea that being trans gives you an “unfair” advantage. athats why when we see swimmers like Leah Thomas, the institute has the responsibility to vet them to standards they deem as fair. As fairness is an incredibly subjective concept

7

Anonymous #2 3w

It's based on statistical evidence that 99% of biological men are stronger than 99% of biological women, not a single story. The single story is my experience and was only mentioned because someone else said that "well if you give them hormones pre puberty, there isn't much of an advantage". Has nothing to do with the fact that I do consider using a biological male in biological womens sports cheating. And calling me a bitch and telling me to shut up won't get me to change that opinion lol

-3

Anonymous #6 3w

Not reading that essay; let trans people play sports

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Anonymous #2 3w

Ya just have their own leagues that are intramural with men and women and however many more genders there are since I last looked. And then if those leagues wanted the best players they'd all be biological men lol. Agreed!

-4

Anonymous #6 3w

And you reported me holyyyyy soft

1

Anonymous #5 3w

I strongly disagree there isn't enough evidence that having a trans man in biological women sports is unfair

-3

Anonymous #6 3w

I think there is a TON of evidence biological males are stronger than biological females

-2

Anonymous #6 3w

But how would your hypothetical sports gamblers bet on these leagues? I don’t think it’s a good solution.

4

Anonymous #6 3w

What do you think the hormones are for btw

6

Anonymous #6 3w

Okay. What is your objective metric for rating fairness?

5

Anonymous #2 3w

I'm an ally and have a family member who is Lgbtq+ and agrees with me on this. Recreational leagues sure, but if you want the best players like the olympics for example, men win. I'm also a leftist but it's hard to disagree with rightists about how the left just hurls personal insults at you and doesn't even attempt to listen to you hahaha. Leah is a great example of just how unfair the advantage is. Broke multiple records in womens league, was not even top 1% in mens league.

-2

Anonymous #6 3w

Thomas began transitioning in 2019 with hormone replacement therapy and followed the then-established NCAA and Ivy League rules. In 2022, the NCAA updated its transgender athlete policy. The update took a sport-by-sport approach that "preserves opportunity for transgender student-athletes while balancing fairness 1/2

7

Anonymous #6 3w

At the time, it aligned with decisions by United States Olympic and Paralympic Committee, as well as International Olympic Committee. They accounted for her and other trans athletes. So no it wasn’t “unfair”

7

Anonymous #5 3w

It was unfair, they knew it, the whole world knew it, that's why they changed the rules and stripped her of her titles

-2

Anonymous #6 3w

Your personal opinion of it being unfair doesn’t change the reality that entire committees worked together to make a fair standard. What objective metric are you using to determine fairness?

5

Anonymous #6 3w

“My gay family member/friend agrees” is just “I have a Black friend” for Queer issues btw

5

Anonymous #2 3w

The idea that a random YY user knows more about sports fairness standards than the literal olympics committee is laughable. Not to mention how much they clearly don’t know about HRT or the actual guidelines and tests set in place to ensure fairness

8

Anonymous #5 3w

Now the committee has changed it? So which committee should I believe? The one from 2019? Or 2022? Lol it's sad that you don't understand how politics affects the committee's decision while I have unwavered my own decision

-1

Anonymous #6 3w

Hold on: You can’t answer the single thing I’ve asked. What objective metric are you using to determine fairness?

6

Anonymous #6 3w

I said she began transitioning in 2019. Read what I’m actually telling you.

5

Anonymous #5 3w

Anything that gives one team an advantage over another. Within the rules, and outside of it. My point still stands even if I made up the dates, the committee changed their own opinion, which means they can be wrong. Which means I'm not going to blindly believe what they say. I understand that they have to define it, and go by those rules to determine fairness, doesn't mean I have to agree with their definition

-2

Anonymous #2 3w

The olympics has banned trans athletes so I do win rn.

0

Anonymous #6 3w

Thx guys

0

Anonymous #6 3w

What’s super cool is that I get to cheer while things get more woke overtime and you’re going to slowly go insane

6

Anonymous #6 3w

What objective metric do you use to consider advantages? What genetic, physical characteristics, biological traits, etc are used to determine an advantage over another group from a different location? Do you think you know the concept of fairness in sports more than the olympics? committee

8

Anonymous #5 3w

Do you think you do? Trans athletes are banned under the committee right now.

-1

Anonymous #6 3w

They didn’t actually. Good job https://www.espn.com/olympics/story/_/id/46917038/international-olympic-committee-no-decision-yet-transgender-ban

5

Anonymous #2 3w

i do think it's unfair to use this to decide your own opinion. that's like saying the government is always right or groups in power are always right. If the olympics made the decision purely based off science then i'd understand but they didn't

7

Anonymous OP 3w

replying to the picture ^

7

Anonymous #6 3w

No they’re not. I’m asking you. You’re claiming it’s unfair, so substantiate it, define an advantage, use actual objective metrics to determine what is and isn’t fair. Prove me wrong. I’m asking the questions, it shouldn’t be hard to answer if you think you’re right

6

Anonymous #5 3w

Hormone therapy is cutting edge and isn't fully understood yet. If I could agree with trans women who've had hormone therapy before puberty are on the same level as ciswomen I would. They have less dense bones and lung capacity compared to biological males but it's still more than cis women even with hormones.

0

Anonymous OP 3w

In what ways was the decision not based on science? In general yes, question authority, but like, #6 is clearly out of his depth here and that was moreso my point in comparing him to the Olympic committee

4

Anonymous #5 3w

So since men have higher bone density and more muscle mass, we are stronger. I would consider that an advantage in sports because you do better when you're stronger, for example

-2

Anonymous #6 3w

You do know that estrogen takes that muscle mass away right

7

Anonymous #1 3w

It reduces it and it's still more than ciswomen

-1

Anonymous #6 3w

Okay, so do you advocate to prevent any and all athletes with a higher bone density than the opposing team from competing in that specific game?

5

Anonymous #6 3w

Your teachers were too kind to you when you spoke out of turn

1

Anonymous #6 3w

I'm also a body builder, and I know that if I did testosterone, then stopped steroids for a year to pass drug tests, I'd still have muscle mass from when I was on steroids lol

-2

Anonymous #6 3w

Also untrue. I am not stronger than any woman in the WWE just because my bone density may be higher. So clearly biology isn’t the only factor to determine whether or not it’s fair

6

Anonymous #5 3w

No I don't. But if a large group had XY chromosomes, and they generally all had higher bone density, and a group with XX chromosomes, who had lower bone density, I'd want them in different leagues to ensure fairness and safety. Which I do.

-2

Anonymous #5 3w

99% of men are stronger than 99% of women. Glad you found the outlier

-2

Anonymous #6 3w

And I did just make that up so let me just change it to most men are stronger than most women. Just because you're weaker than a woman doesn't change that fact. Just like just because the girl on my soccer team was worse than the guys, doesn't mean all girls are worse than all guys

-2

Anonymous #6 3w

Me when I make statistics up

6

Anonymous #6 3w

Can you show that data? I’d love to know where you got that specific figure from.

6

Anonymous #6 3w

Hey quick question, when did woman’s sports become important to you lmao

6

Anonymous #6 3w

Okay so individual unfairness is okay to you? If bone density matters for some individuals but not all, it’s arbitrary practices. If I have better bone density than 2 people on the opposing team I have an innate advantage over them. That doesn’t prevent me from playing against them in your eyes?

9

Anonymous #6 3w

Let’s not make things up then lol. That’s intellectually dishonest. Can you substantiate that “most” men are stronger than “most” women?

8

Anonymous #5 3w

Just looked it up, men are 30-50% stronger in upperbody and 20-40% lower body on average. Either way, men still have the ability to build muscle faster and easier than women, which isn't completely gotten rid of by hormone therapy

-2

Anonymous #6 3w

“Just looked it up” bro is yapping with ZERO sources

0

Anonymous #5 3w

If you have substantionally denser bones that are no where near your competitors yes it would (men vs women)

-2

Anonymous #2 3w

Took getting dunked on for him to type something into Google HEEEELPPP 🤣

0

Anonymous #6 3w

Do you happen to know the biological or hormonal process that causes men to grow muscle faster by chance? What the main factors are to cause that increased muscle growth?

3

Anonymous #2 3w

I have been completely ignoring you LOL i still haven't been dunked on? Idk why I have to argue men are generally stronger and can build muscle faster and easier. This has been known for thousands of years.

-1

Anonymous #6 3w

Y'all acting like I'm the crazy one hahaha

-1

Anonymous #6 3w

We ain’t acting 🫵😂

-1

Anonymous #6 3w

So regardless of any other factors if my bone density is too high that’s a no go?

4

Anonymous #5 3w

If half the population's bone density is substantionally higher than the other half, they should have separate leagues. Which they do, like I said. Not if one person's is higher than another.

-1

Anonymous #4 3w

Do you support getting rid of women’s sports completely? After all it’s only genetic differences. Let’s let everyone complete again each other regardless of sex or gender and see who comes out on top.

3

Anonymous #7 3w

That’s the most fair under this worldview however it is likely that cis men would completely dominate most sports.

4

Anonymous #7 3w

I’m genuinely curious what you think as I think this is the core of the issue.

4

Anonymous #8 3w

If men's and women's sports were combined it would undermine all ciswomen athletes. All their records would disappear etc. All winners would be men in the olympics.

5

Anonymous #6 3w

This is my problem with it as I'm an athlete and could understand being frustrated when a man ranked #2000 or so in mens gets #1 in womens

1

Anonymous #2 3w

they factored science in but it was also based on fairness, inclusion, prevention of harm, non discrimination, stakeholders, and right to privacy

2

Anonymous #7 3w

If we want sports to be the fairest possible, have different classes based on a variety of factors. Height, weight, strength, etc These don’t have to be based on sex or gender. There’s short scrawny men and tall buff women. Lets be real here, the woman would whoop the guys ass even if they’re both cis

10

Anonymous #5 3w

i think we all know most men are stronger then most women right? obviously there's plenty of people to defy that but there's thousands of experiments to prove that men are on average stronger than

5

Anonymous #6 3w

Okay but in my example? Also what about the other thing I asked.

6

Anonymous OP 3w

when talking about athletics more factors become relevant https://brzycki.scholar.princeton.edu/sites/g/files/toruqf4561/files/brzycki/files/mb-2002-01.pdf

9

Anonymous #5 3w

i think that we made men's and women's sports seperate bc women would not be able to make it to professional sports otherwise. It's many factors combined not just bone density

-1

Anonymous OP 3w

If you’re creating a standard only applicable towards the limitation of men then yeah they wouldn’t be able to. But why do you have this idea that women couldn’t compete?

2

Anonymous #5 3w

what physical sport do you think women could make professionally over men? i watch women's sports and i'm not trying to sound anti women but there is objectively a different fitness level

0

Anonymous #5 3w

u lowkey got me on that one. mostly testosterone so i see your point

0

Anonymous OP 3w

Long endurance sports consistently show women perform better than men. Mostly due to fat redistribution and increased lung function. Long swimming competitions, endurance races. That’s a literal fact too. Look it up.

6

Anonymous OP 3w

The idea that a trans woman would have too much of an unfair advantage assumes so many things -She’s already stronger due to training -Her physique is stronger due to structural differences. IE height weight etc -hormonal processes that build muscle are still in play etc

7

Anonymous #5 3w

"In traditional endurance events like marathons, men consistently outperform women by about 10%. However, in ultra-distance competitions this disparity can be as small as 4%" not a literal fact. And yes what I'm reading says it's because women's bodies are better designed for endurance. Having more slow twitch fiber muscles, which helps in the lungs too. So all that really does is prove a point, for there not to be trans men in women's sports either. And to have separate league's. Which we do

-1

Anonymous #6 3w

trans men in male sports

-1

Anonymous #7 3w

There literally aren’t enough trans athletes that exist to “get rid of women’s sports completely” though. Plus if you start HRT before puberty there’s no difference between trans and cis athletes. People forget Lea Thomas tied for like 5th place- being trans doesn’t mean you’ll just win everything

1

Anonymous #6 3w

If a trans woman ranked in women’s sports, that would not be a man ranking in women’s sports because she would not be a man.

-1

Anonymous #9 3w

*biological man

1

Anonymous #5 3w

They are banned in US thanks to orange man 🤡, we'll see if we lose to a bunch of biological males tho

0

Anonymous #9 3w

And they were a man when they competed in men's then transitioned afterward and competed in women's so actually I stand by what I said

1

Anonymous #6 3w

I mean 1) no they would have been a woman when they competed in men’s as well. That’s the whole definition of transness: you are not your assigned gender. 2) “biological man” isn’t really a useful term either, as sex isn’t binary in the way many people think either. especially since so many cis women athletes have biological sex differences that people could argue make the “biologically male” in some way. This kind of rhetoric hurts cis women athletes too.

3

Anonymous #9 3w

1) They would have been defined that way when they competed in men's so I am being respectful. 2) I completely disagree with you biological males is a scientific term

1