Anonymous #1 1d

I disagree

-10

Anonymous #1 1d

There are hundreds of majority Christian and Muslim countries only one majority Jewish

-2

Anonymous OP 1d

No state has a right to exist, especially a terrorist state that has repeatedly violated international law

37

Anonymous OP 1d

Those countries don't have a right to exist either, but the people do.

8

Anonymous #1 1d

Must suck being brainwashed

-13

Anonymous OP 1d

So you think north Korea and Afghanistan have a right to exist? Does their existence not prevent full actualization of self determination by their people?

37

Anonymous #1 1d

Israel is a democratic country unlike the two examples you’ve mentioned and actually most democrats critical of Israel are critical of Netanyahus right wing government not the existence of Israel itself

-11

Anonymous OP 1d

So your position is that only democratic stats have a right to exist?

39

Anonymous #1 1d

No my position is that’s not an appropriate example

-13

Anonymous #1 1d

the Jewish people have a right to exist and a large amount of Jewish people created the state of Israel as a way of protecting that right when the rest of the world wouldn’t. people understandably see the two as linked

5

Anonymous #2 1d

that’s why people react so strongly to being told Israel has no right to exist

3

Anonymous #2 1d

a whole lot of Jewish people alive today only exist because of Israel

3

Anonymous #2 1d

Sure but if a bunch of Christians or Muslims got together and made a country and subsequently started killing civilians indiscriminately and illegally seizing land, would that state have a right to exist?

5

Anonymous #1 1d

first of all Christians and Muslims have done that many many times and second of all they were never fighting against the possibility of eradication when they did it, and, third of all, nobody debates whether those states have a right to exist, we just accept that they do. we respond to their actions, not their existence

3

Anonymous OP 1d

Why? Is Israel not killing civilians and violating international law? The Jewish people have a right to exist, but they do not have a right to create a terrorist state.

33

Anonymous #2 1d

I think states that are guilty of genocide should be dismantled whether they're Jewish, atheist, Muslim, Hindu, etc. Your history does not give you special privilege to commit genocide.

9

Anonymous #1 1d

i don’t think dismantling a state makes any sense as a response to genocide or any other crime against humanity, and i’ve never heard it seriously discussed in any context other than Israel. how would you dismantle Myanmar? or the US? or Sudan? regimes and governments can be dismantled, states can’t. it’s particularly complicated with Israel because this is a people who created their state to escape genocide and for whom the dismantling of the state would likely lead to another genocide

3

Anonymous #2 1d

it doesn’t give Israel a “special privilege” to commit genocide against Palestinians but it does mean if you are going to advocate for Israel to be dismantled you have to come up with an answer for protecting Jewish existence in a world without Israel, and general human rights law has utterly failed there

6

Anonymous #2 1d

replacing one genocide with another is no answer, whether you’re talking about Israel or your own political positions

6

Anonymous OP 1d

Most western people with extreme views on Israel came to it through the repeated and unyielding violence and colonization of the Israeli state. If Israel demonstrated it could stop ethnic cleansing and persecuting Arabs then maybe they would feel differently.

27

Anonymous #4 1d

I do not believe that any state should exist with the explicit purpose of only being for one ethnicity. This means that those not of that ethnicity will inevitably be discriminated against and treated as if they do not belong in said country. Now that would be problem enough if Israel wasn’t currently doing expansionist settler colonialism, mass killings, and ethnic cleansing.

24

Anonymous OP 1d

And none of those countries should exist only for Muslims and Christians

9

Anonymous #4 1d

most Israelis with extreme views on Arabs and the West came to it through the repeated and unyielding violence and colonization of Christian and Muslim states. if the Christian and Muslim world demostrated that they were ready to confront and finally put an end to the 2,000-year-long history of oppression, ethnic cleansing, and genocide against the Jewish people, maybe they would feel differently too

9

Anonymous #4 1d

Israel doesn’t exist only for Jews

-1

Anonymous #2 1d

The apartheid state of South Africa was pretty thoroughly dismantled. Yes it technically continued to exist, but with few of the defining features of the prior government. Occupied Namibia was given independence, the bantustans (considered separate countries where black people’s citizenship belonged) ceased to exist, and citizenship was granted to all.

5

Anonymous #4 1d

there weren’t two nations in those states, there are two nations in Israel and Palestine who both want their own ability to self determine

3

Anonymous #2 1d

Then why does it legally define itself as a “Jewish and democratic state.” When a state defines itself as for a single ethnicity, that’s bad. If the entire point of the country is only to protect Jewish people, what does that mean for non-Jews living in and around Israel?

11

Anonymous #2 1d

and, like you said, both of those states still exist, they’re just different

3

Anonymous #2 1d

Guess what, I believe Christian and Muslim states should do that too. I’m not a fool. I know the history of Zionism. People fled pogroms in Russia and Germany. Then they fled pogroms in the Middle East and North Africa. Entire governments expelled whole Jewish populations. Ultimately, the original settlers of the first Aliyahs were right. They wouldn’t be safe in their homelands. That doesn’t mean the harm they did isn’t real, or that we need to keep clinging to ethnocentric ideas.

8

Anonymous #4 1d

we can talk about the complexity and contradictions inherent in that definition of Israel but to do so requires recognizing that Israel exists and isn’t going to stop exists

3

Anonymous #2 1d

*existing

0

Anonymous #4 1d

I think *every* government needs to treat all its people equally regardless of ethnicity. That goes for Egypt or Yemen or Romania just as much as it goes for Israel. The reason people are talking about Israel is because they’re doing ethnic cleansing right at this moment, with the support of our government.

8

Anonymous #4 1d

no it doesn’t mean the harm they did isn’t real, or that we should keep clinging to ethnocentric ideals. but i’m sure you can agree with me that it isn’t currently happening, and that justifiably makes Israel Jews skeptical of the outside world’s opinions and demands

0

Anonymous #4 1d

I think many people would be satisfied simply if Israel stopped ethnic cleansing and treated its Arab population equally. These extreme views are driven by the nihilistic belief that based on history, the government of Israel is incapable of that. They usually believe that an ethnically neutral government which integrates Arab and Jews equally is the answer.

8

Anonymous #4 1d

i am trying to get you to understand Israelis, not agree with them. you don’t have to agree. but if you understand why people have extreme nihilistic views about Israel, then you can understand why Israelis have extreme nihilistic views about the rest of the world. it’s a stalemate, neither is going to demonstrate anything to the other because they’re convinced they don’t owe anybody anything

1

Anonymous #2 1d

and telling Israelis their state shouldn’t exist and their concerns for their own safety should be ignored just throws fuel on the fire

-2

Anonymous #2 1d

“There weren’t two nations in those states” yes there were way more. Afrikaners, Brits, Germans, Coloureds, Griqua, Basters, Oorlams, Indians, Chinese, Zulus, Xhosa, Sotho, Tsonga, Swazi, Venda, South Ndebele, Ovambo, Kavangos, Damaras, Hereros, Namas

6

Anonymous #2 1d

So in South Africa, the state was redefined completely. Namibia was an occupied territory. The bantustans were considered separate countries. If Israel and Palestine merged into a single state, and was redefined to be for no single ethnicity, and everyone had equal suffrage, would you consider it the same state just because the Israeli political institutions continued to be used?

2

Anonymous #2 1d

I do understand why Israelis have those views. And why those extreme views tend to predominate among the Mizrahim particularly.

8

Anonymous #4 1d

Israel and Palestine also have many small nations like Druze, Bedouin, Samaritan, etc. what i should have said is they have two that largely view themselves as diametrically opposed— both have a significant faction that has declared it won’t be satisfied by anything less than the extermination of the other, and both have a majority that believe the other aide’s eliminationist faction is representative of the other side’s population. in that context, giving them equal rights in one state…

0

Anonymous #2 1d

… would lead to an incredibly destructive forever war, not much better than what exists now and quite possibly worse. for there to be a solution, both nations need to feel that their existence is not under threat from the other

4

Anonymous #2 1d

which requires some kind of institution that is able to protect the self determination of both peoples. and any institution that can do that, i would consider to include the continued existence of israel

1

Anonymous OP 1d

“Only democracy in the Middle East” but there’s no judicial independence and minorities have no rights. It’s an apartheid. Call it what it is.

9

Anonymous #2 23h

And I think you can understand why people are currently prioritizing stopping the slaughter of Palestinians which is currently happening

6

Anonymous #4 23h

i can but stopping the current slaughter of Palestinians doesn’t require ending the existence of Israel

5

Anonymous #2 23h

Why? Why would discussing how a country define itself require some prophetic view of the future? I can talk about fuckin Albania without decreeing the country of Albania will always exist in its current form.

9

Anonymous #2 23h

in fact if anything making it about the existence of israel is only going to prolong the slaughter of Palestinians because neither side is ever going to be willing to make peace if they think the end of israel is a possibility

1

Anonymous #2 23h

You do know that apartheid South African politicians actively viewed it in the same way. And actively compared their struggle against terrorists (as the ANC and other groups were defined at the time) to that of Israel.

4

Anonymous #4 23h

yes i know and i also know enough about the specifics of israel and palestine to tell the difference between actual eliminationist factions and exaggerated propaganda ones

0

Anonymous #2 23h

The reason so many people have become disillusioned with a two-state solution is because Israel keeps invading and annexing neighboring countries, including the West Bank.

3

Anonymous #4 23h

“in its current form” is a totally different thing though

0

Anonymous #4 23h

I would support a two state solution in principle. However I believe that the creation of two states, one Palestinian and one Israeli, would likely lead to Israel persecuting its Arab population and perhaps expelling them

5

Anonymous #2 23h

if you want to have a constructive conversation about how Albania’s identity is contradicting it does kind of include accepting that for the foreseeable future there will continue to be an Albanian identity to debate

3

Anonymous #4 23h

and the reason Israelis have become disillusioned with a two state solution is because they keep getting attacked by neighboring states who openly say that Israel shouldn’t exist. it goes both ways, there’s no trust on either side

2

Anonymous #2 22h

i mean there’s a reason why a future Palestinian state isn’t expected to have any Jewish population at all

3

Anonymous OP 22h

states pop into and out of existence all of the time. there was no outcry of opposition when the USSR was illegally dissolved, but suggest dissolving any of the settler colonies? no state possesses the right to exist, because states do not have rights

6

Anonymous _orangutan 22h

ussr was an empire not a state

0

Anonymous #2 22h

empires possess states, moron

3

Anonymous _orangutan 22h

obviously. and guess which states still exist?

4

Anonymous #2 22h

“the U.S. is an empire not a state” like what?

3

Anonymous _orangutan 22h

the US has an indirect empire but if we lost that empire we’d still exist as a nation

5

Anonymous #2 22h

Germany was divided into four zones of occupation, Japan almost had the same fate but the U.S. feared the spread of communism

3

Anonymous #2 22h

you’re arguing just to argue because no one is saying otherwise

6

Anonymous #1 21h

Let’s abolish Iran then?

0

Anonymous _orangutan 21h

I simply would like to understand what the outcome you would like is

2

Anonymous #9 21h

^^ me too

5

Anonymous #2 21h

I love you

1

Anonymous #9 21h

i love you too i think

1

Anonymous #4 21h

The issue with this decooonial analysis is that all of these people had somewhere to go back to. You can’t repeat an Algerian revolution in Israel without genocide.

4

Anonymous _orangutan 21h

What ended up happening to Germany?

5

Anonymous #6 21h

Man this planet earth thing sounds great. Let’s put the Jews there and see what happens.

4

Anonymous #9 21h

iconic i definitely love you too

5

Anonymous OP 20h

The last time Israel had a Prime Minister who was remotely open to peaceful coexistence with Palestinians, they fucking murdered him.

1

Anonymous #2 20h

That’s cool & all but none of that gives them a right to do a genocide or have an apartheid

1

Anonymous #2 20h

So if you do a genocide because you believe not doing a genocide will end your peoples existence then we just say valid you do you have fun?

3

Anonymous #9 20h

I believe given the history black people have the right to own white slaves in America & to deny them of that right would deeply discount the historical oppression along with systemic racism that black people have faced in America

2

Anonymous cheese_of_the_world_unite 19h

don’t speak for people

1

Anonymous #2 19h

And the Israeli government has played into this by intentionally inciting attacks. They wanted Hamas to take over Gaza. They started the battles with Syria over the Golan heights. Peace, like Yitzhak Rabin envisioned, means no more expansion.

4

Anonymous #4 19h

yes, all of that is true

1

Anonymous #2 19h

who am I speaking for with this comment

6

Anonymous cheese_of_the_world_unite 19h

american jews

1

Anonymous cheese_of_the_world_unite 19h

there is so, so much wrong with what you just said and you can’t even see it

2

Anonymous #2 19h

I don’t think it’s speaking for a group to notice that the group exists, lives peacefully, and are, statistically speaking, doing quite well in this country. There are thriving Jewish communities in the United States. That’s just a fact.

5

Anonymous cheese_of_the_world_unite 19h

i don’t have any hope that you’re going to give my opinion even a second of legitimate consideration. but american jews, despite doing well by socioeconomic standards, have been facing a meteoric rise in antisemitism that is both terrifying and eerily familiar. and even if we weren’t, using the fact that we are“not slaughtering our neighbors” to imply that other Jews in the world are “slaughtering their neighbors” just for shits and giggles is disgusting

1

Anonymous #2 19h

jewish americans have deeply personal and individual and complicated relationships to the united states, to israel, and to the global jewish community, and you have no right to speak for us

1

Anonymous #2 19h

Yeah, antisemitism is a scourge. And I don’t think Israel’s murderous tendencies are because they’re Jewish, I think it’s because they’re an ethnostate with imperial ambitions. When a state’s governing philosophy is ethnic nationalism with a side of expansionism, it’s always gonna end horribly for other ethnic groups in their desired territory. Israel’s fundamental problem is not rooted in its Jewishness, but its political character as an ethnostate.

4

Anonymous cheese_of_the_world_unite 19h

i don’t know how to explain how gross and insulting it is for someone to say “since Jews in America aren’t slaughtering their neighbors, there’s clearly no reason for Israel to exist.” i just don’t know how to put into words how dehumanizing that is

1

Anonymous #2 18h

How is that your takeaway from “Jews can be safe elsewhere so why do they need an ethnostate where they can slaughter their neighbors”? As they said, the problem is in its nature as an ethnostate founded on ethnic cleansing and settler colonialism, how is that dehumanizing to anyone? Serious question there btw I genuinely cannot see how “ethnostates and genocide bad” is dehumanizing

9

Anonymous #6 18h

because the implication is that since there is one country in the last 2,000 years of history where we have found a relative and tenuous level of safety, there’s no other possible reason for israel to exist other than some sick desire to slaughter people

1

Anonymous #12 18h

This is a really weird analogy to what I said given that I never claimed Jews should be given a “genocide pass” or something of the sort.

4

Anonymous cheese_of_the_world_unite 17h

BRG has to be one of the most socially maladjusted people on planet earth.

1

Anonymous #9 17h

Calla Walsh wins the schizo crown always though

1

Anonymous #9 17h

Good to know. Although my genuine & sincere position is antisemitism is real & unfortunately growing. Jews have a rich but incredibly tragic history. There’s absolutely nothing that justifies Israel’s actions & linking Israel’s actions to Jews is incredibly dangerous & antisemitic. Most people rightfully hate Israel for obvious reasons. So linking Jews to one of the most hated countries that’s currently doing a genocide & holds an apartheid is incredibly bad & dangerous. Jews aren’t a monolith

1

Anonymous #12 17h

Not saying that you’re linking Jews & Israel or trying to justify anything that Israel does by invoking Jewish history. Just saying my sincere views on the matter

1

Anonymous #12 17h

idk what #9’s opinions are on this but just want to say i appreciate the sincerity. but i want to say that the vast majority of Jews are linked to Israel in one way or another, whether they want to be or not. half of all Jews in the world live there and there are not that many of us. and then there’s the cultural and historical significance of the land itself. most of us care what happens there, but that doesn’t mean we approve of what happens there or have any say over it

1

Anonymous #2 17h

No problem. Yeah I acknowledge that Israel holds a large portion of the worlds Jews & of course Jews feel some type of way about Israel in general be it pro, anti, or indifferent. I think regardless of how Jews or anyone else feels defending & tying yourself to Israel is harmful & does the opposite of making Jews more safe.

1

Anonymous #12 17h

Also I know the average Jew has no say in what Israel does especially Jews outside of Israel. In reality outside of Israeli citizens the American government has the most say in what Israel does or doesn’t do

1

Anonymous #2 13h

The purpose of a system is what it does not what it purports

3

Anonymous #9 10h

Tbh I think he’s gotten better in the intervening years since going tf outside more, but the shit he was up to years ago is hilarious meme fodder

1

Anonymous cheese_of_the_world_unite 10h

The screenshot I posted will never not be hilarious

1

Anonymous cheese_of_the_world_unite 10h

I’ve just been eating up the DSA drama lately

1

Anonymous #9 9h

Me too, and lowkey I can see both sides of the drama so well that my stance is completely incoherent

1

Anonymous cheese_of_the_world_unite 9h

The Ben dude is a bitch and Omar is an antisemite through and through lmao

1

Anonymous cheese_of_the_world_unite 9h

I simultaneously believe that socialism and religion are fundamentally incompatible, and I cannot sugarcoat that, AND that singling out the Black church for critique should be left to Black radicals. There’s plenty of way more toxic white churches to criticize, leave Black people’s business to the Black people in the movement.

1