Anonymous #1 4w

WW2 affected the entire world prior to the US joining. I can go into more detail but these are not comparable

0

Anonymous #2 4w

so what was the point even just moral grandstanding?? but subjecting the world to 4 more years of Trump is not moral

10

Anonymous OP 4w

i cant believe we wasted our time in korea, vietnam, iran, afghanistan, guatemala, cuba, iraq, somalia

5

Anonymous #1 4w

I can’t either.

9

Anonymous OP 4w

so im confused - wasting our time in israel is ok?

3

Anonymous #1 4w

Where did I ever say that? Our job is to take care of Americans, actual Americans. Not to try and solve every countries issues. Only when the issue impacts or poses an actual threat to the wellbeing of the American people should we get involved.

-1

Anonymous #2 4w

the more i think about it the more i believe this was a propaganda campaign directed at leftists that worked

4

Anonymous OP 4w

so when we assist israel endlessly is that not just wasting our time?

1

Anonymous #2 4w

It’s an ongoing thing, we currently have a bunch saying they won’t vote in 2028 if it isn’t their ideal candidate in the general as if the rest of us want the establishment democrat we’re going to get stuck with

1

Anonymous OP 4w

jesus christ how can people be so stupid

11

Anonymous #1 4w

Yes. Ideally, Israel and Palestine should resolve the issue on their own but I don’t want my tax dollars or American lives thrown away.

1

Anonymous #1 4w

there is a lot of foreign policy things we do that i don’t like but none of them make me want to put Trump in office

9

Anonymous #2 4w

neither do i man i dont think i ever said that i dont think its an unreasonable ask to say "hey change your policy before i vote whats going on over there is an atrocity and it relates to us BECAUSE WE FUCKING FUND IT DAMN NEAR COMPLETELY"

1

Anonymous mushy.the.mushroom 4w

They’re both gonna do it. So I voted for the one that screws the rest of America over the least. It’s called not being selfish.

5

Anonymous #1 4w

that’s what this conversation is about though— people who refused to vote democratic in the general election knowing it would help Trump back into office over this

1

Anonymous just_peachy_ 4w

literally how can you not see that you got tricked. there are a MILLION ways to get the democrats to be less supportive of Israel but none of that fucking matters if they aren’t in power

-1

Anonymous just_peachy_ 4w

The genocide that’s worse under Trump? Did you want more palestinians to die Peachy? Was that your point?

9

Anonymous #2 4w

Hey how many dems voted against the latest weapons we sent to Israel? How many dems refused to endorse anti Zionist candidates purely because they were not Zionists? Or does none of that matter bc they aren’t in power

3

Anonymous just_peachy_ 4w

it doesn’t matter because they’re not in power. you taught them a lesson great but now they can’t do anything

1

Anonymous #2 4w

If they don’t draw the line at genocide they won’t draw it at democracy. If there were a million ways to get the democrats to be less supportive of Israel then they’d be less supportive by now.

7

Anonymous mushy.the.mushroom 4w

they have been becoming less supportive over time especially within the past few years. democracy changes slowly

2

Anonymous #2 4w

Clearly not because the dems, despite the provable fact they lost a ton of voters bc of Gaza, are STILL not willing to shift on the issue. And we are seeing massive turnout for candidates who do speak out against this genocide. But you’re not going to see any people in the upper ranks of the DNC changing their behavior

5

Anonymous just_peachy_ 4w

again, democracy changes slowly. change happens from the bottom up. that is them changing

0

Anonymous #2 4w

I’m sure in 25 years when all of Gaza is rubble we will see democrats be very sorry and put up a plaque. Just like they’re all suddenly against the Iraq war 23 years on

10

Anonymous just_peachy_ 4w

no perfect candidate was going to show up out of nowhere to win the election. it was trump or harris and everyone knew that

0

Anonymous #2 4w

Yeah man it’s not “democracy”. Because if it was democracy, the democrats would be pro Palestinian. Because a majority of democrat voters are pro Palestinian. Don’t fuckin use that word pretending you believe in it.

5

Anonymous mushy.the.mushroom 4w

we have a flawed democracy. i would like to have leaders in place that i can push to improve it rather than leaders that will destroy it and replace it with an oligarchy

1

Anonymous #2 4w

I’m not asking for perfection, I’m asking for someone who will follow the will of the people, which the dems are clearly not focused on

6

Anonymous just_peachy_ 4w

well you got Trump lol

1

Anonymous #2 4w

Wow I never noticed

1

Anonymous #2 4w

Sounds like Kamala should’ve worked harder to get votes 🤷

5

Anonymous #2 4w

That isn’t my fault. She sucks.

1

Anonymous #2 4w

Also love how you say “well you got Trump lol” even though so much of his policies have been backed by dems. Funding the gazan genocide? Of course! Tax breaks for corporations? Yup! Deporting immigrants? Oh ICE just needs better training! Violating the rights of trans people? Dems already selling out trans people too! Dems under this administration continue to back off on every fucking position they have, and these are people that are supposed to make the country safer? Yeah right

1

Anonymous just_peachy_ 4w

dems are definitely not doing enough to oppose trump but also most of this shit wouldn’t have been put forward at all without him

3

Anonymous #2 4w

And half the shit wouldn’t have gotten through if we voted in dems with a spine. But they’re insistent on not having one

4

Anonymous just_peachy_ 4w

“I would rather blame others than take accountability for my inaction”

2

Anonymous OP 4w

Inaction? Buddy if it wouldn’t dox me I could list a lot of ways I’ve done work. Hilarious statement

6

Anonymous just_peachy_ 4w

Everything except the easiest and most important thing. Hence the moral grandstanding

1

Anonymous OP 4w

Is it moral grandstanding to ask for better? To say we want change and aren’t going to vote for people who don’t promise it? Christ, people have been talking about democracy in this comment thread but seem to not actually want to see it in practice

5

Anonymous just_peachy_ 4w

You can’t win with a woman, a progressive is even harder to win with and if democrats can’t win with safe candidates why would they run someone higher risk? Maybe if they had support and security they would consider higher risk candidates but your inaction means they don’t have the security to do so

4

Anonymous just_peachy_ 4w

You and most of your other leftist buddies care more about your self image and being in the “right” than the fucking state of this country. It’s fucking annoying

3

Anonymous OP 4w

Ok so then I ask you again. If you can’t draw the line at genocide then where will you draw the line? I want to know what your line in the sand is

3

Anonymous just_peachy_ 4w

no but it is moral grandstanding to not vote in an election between a meh candidate and an evil one because the meh one isn’t good enough

0

Anonymous #2 4w

I don’t think it’s “meh” to be SUPPORTING A GENOCIDE

6

Anonymous just_peachy_ 4w

she would have been much more tough on Netanyahu than Trump is

1

Anonymous just_peachy_ 4w

That’s not my fucking problem. That has no impact on Americans. It’s so damn convenient you strongly advocate for a group you never interact with. I draw the line at the fucking border, anything that happens outside of that isn’t my problem

-1

Anonymous #2 4w

Like she was in 2023 and 2024?

1

Anonymous OP 4w

Why would I need to interact with a group to care abt them? What psycho shit is that?

4

Anonymous just_peachy_ 4w

You can care about them all you want but in the frame of US politics they do not matter. We aren’t the fucking babysitters for the rest of the world

0

Anonymous just_peachy_ 4w

i mean yeah she was tougher than Trump has been back then (not a high bar tho) but she was really losing patience with Netanyahu and was gearing up to press him harder

1

Anonymous #2 4w

Where is this evidence of her gearing up to press him harder?

4

Anonymous just_peachy_ 4w

if Democrats couldn’t stop a genocide they’re funding, idk what makes liberals think they could possibly save “democracy”

5

Anonymous _orangutan 4w

Orangutan, I may not always agree with you, but when you cook you cook

1

Anonymous just_peachy_ 4w

i mean i cant summarize nine months of politics very succintly, but this was her in March of the election year and she got stronger after:

1

Anonymous #2 4w

Vice President Kamala Harris called Sunday for an “immediate ceasefire” in Gaza, indicating a shift of tone from the Biden administration about the nearly five-months-long war between Israel and Hamas. “Given the immense scale of suffering in Gaza, there must be an immediate ceasefire,” Harris said in remarks in Selma, Alabama, drawing loud applause from the crowd before completing her sentence, “at least for the next six weeks, which is currently on the table.”

1

Anonymous #2 4w

Ok but that’s just words, I want to know what policy she was apparently considering using to stop the violence

1

Anonymous just_peachy_ 4w

We’ll never know exactly bc she didn’t get the chance but

1

Anonymous #2 4w

Ok but do you see where I’m coming from? It’s a lot of words and not a lot of action. Especially considering she didn’t speak up on the issue until she was made the candidate despite being the sitting VP. And to not have any policy to stand by is just added insult to injury

3

Anonymous just_peachy_ 4w

Well yeah it’s a campaign, generally nobody is very specific in a campaign. Also she did speak out just not quite as tough bc her job was to back Biden. She reportedly told him in private he needed to do more

4

Anonymous #2 4w

and if you need proof Netanyahu really wanted Trump to win so that should tell you something

6

Anonymous #2 4w

I’m just saying can you see my perspective and why it’s frustrating? Not to mention she didn’t do enough to separate herself from Biden. Remember her quote that was something along the lines of “nothing comes to mind” when asked how she would be different than Biden?

3

Anonymous just_peachy_ 4w

of course i can see why it’s frustrating, i’m frustrated too. what i don’t see is why it makes any sense to decide based on that that you’d rather have trump

1

Anonymous #2 4w

It’s not a matter of rather having Trump. I hate the fucker. And I realize he’s doing harm; I’m literally trans so it directly impacts my friends and myself. But also we can’t keep going in the endless cycle of dems who won’t do anything meaningful to push things forward. All it’s been is status quo stuff and ignoring the wishes of their voter base. There needs to be a point where people put their foot down and demand more

1

Anonymous just_peachy_ 4w

yeah and i feel that frustration too but whatever your reasoning when it came down to filling out that bubble you had two realistic choices and you chose Trump. a lot of people believe that wasn’t the right way to put your foot down or that it wasn’t worth it and they’re angry

1

Anonymous #2 4w

No I didn’t. If I chose Trump then I would have filled out the bubble that said Trump

4

Anonymous just_peachy_ 4w

you knew there were two realistic options. harris losing votes helps trump. you knew the only realistic outcomes were trump wins or harris wins and you put your finger on the scale for trump

1

Anonymous #2 4w

No I didn’t. I didn’t touch the scale, and in fact told a lot of people not to vote for Trump

1

Anonymous just_peachy_ 4w

not voting affects results just as much as voting. the consequences of not voting is giving the other guy a better chance at winning

3

Anonymous just_peachy_ 4w

Also I’m literally in a deep red flyover state so its not like my vote for the president holds much weight

1

Anonymous just_peachy_ 4w

I’m in the deepest red flyover state and I voted. Because that attitude gets us nowhere

4

Anonymous just_peachy_ 4w

at the very least they look at the voting outcomes in individual states and counties when deciding which local and state races to put resources into and who to run. plus the popular vote matters too— even though for some stupid reason it doesn’t decide who’s president it did give him a weaker mandate last time

1

Anonymous OP 4w

Idk if your sympathies stop at borders then I’d imagine you care less about people in other states

1

Anonymous just_peachy_ 4w

Leftists are something else… do I need to say it again?

0

Anonymous #2 4w

Popular votes doesn’t do much. If we went just by popular vote there wouldn’t have been a Trump term one. Also they could still see how I voted at the state level

1

Anonymous OP 4w

Calm down, I was being sarcastic

1

Anonymous just_peachy_ 4w

Mhmmm, sure. Weasel your way out

6

Anonymous OP 4w

Ok whatever you say dude

1

Anonymous just_peachy_ 4w

if it didn’t matter you wouldn’t have done it

1

Anonymous #2 4w

I think on the state level an individual vote carries much more weight then a national level. Pretty sure that’s factually provable depending on the state you’re in

1

Anonymous just_peachy_ 4w

obviously a state vote carries more weight but national votes still matter?? also like if it didn’t affect anything then everyone who says it was just moral grandstanding is right

1

Anonymous just_peachy_ 4w

you can’t say you’re morally superior to democratic voters for not voting democrat and then also say your vote doesn’t matter because you don’t live in a swing state

1

Anonymous #2 4w

So if my vote as a leftist is this important, as well as other leftists, why aren’t dems bothering to appeal to leftists at least a little bit? If they truly cared then why sell out so many groups they claimed to care about

1

Anonymous just_peachy_ 4w

is it or is it not?? you keep going back and forth. my position is every vote matters but now you’re saying yours doesn’t

1

Anonymous #2 4w

Ok I should be more clear. My individual vote in a state that is far right does not matter. In states that are swing states it would carry substantially more weight. And I think its the responsibility of people to ask more of their candidates, which is why I couldnt necessarily recommend people vote for Kamala, nor could I recommend anyone vote for whatever corporate Dem the party puts out next such as Newsom or some other ghoul

1

Anonymous just_peachy_ 4w

so like what do you want people in swing states to actually do

1

Anonymous #2 4w

If the candidate is good I want them to vote for them, but if the candidate sucks then yeah I don’t think voting them is would meaningfully change the course of the country as it currently stands

1

Anonymous just_peachy_ 4w

but why does that mean they should let the even worse candidate in

1

Anonymous #2 4w

We already are seeing them dems adopt republican positions on everything as they constantly backtrack on what positions they claimed to hold. Remember when they joked about the wall only for Biden to go and build more? Or that trans people are deserving of rights only to throw them under the bus after losing and now saying we need to focus on more “normal” issues? As the party currently stands they don’t care. They don’t even pretend to care

1

Anonymous just_peachy_ 4w

but if your problem is the dems are becoming too much like republicans why does that make you want republicans in office

1

Anonymous #2 4w

It doesn’t. I don’t want republicans in office. But as things currently stand, I don’t think there is a meaningful difference between people acting maliciously vs people who will go along with all the malicious behavior and back off on anything they claimed to believe while still feeling entitled to a vote. The only difference in that case is how quickly something happens

1

Anonymous just_peachy_ 4w

i think there is a meaningful difference to kids like Liam Ramos

1

Anonymous #2 4w

Biden locked up people too and separated families though rather than helping anyone gain citizenship. Remember, it’s a misdemeanor to come here illegally. And while yeah, to our knowledge Biden never detained any US citizens, the dems currently are saying the problem isn’t ICE but rather that they need more funding for training. As if ICE isn’t maliciously going after POC

1

Anonymous just_peachy_ 4w

yeah and there were dem lawmakers, lawyers, and judges who challenged him over it and since Biden wasn’t a wannabe dictator they had a chance. now they have no chance and Trump is doing things orders of magnitude worse than Biden did

1

Anonymous #2 4w

Huh? This administration has lost most of their court cases outside of SCOTUS

1

Anonymous just_peachy_ 4w

but they dont give a fuck about the courts and they keep doing shit anyway

1

Anonymous #2 4w

trump’s whole thing is he’s trying to strip the courts of any power over him

1

Anonymous #2 4w

under Trump we’re losing the infrastructure we have that lets us have a say in government

1

Anonymous #2 4w

And what have dems done to stop them when they violate court orders? You do realize senators and representatives are still extremely powerful people with a lot of sway. The most we have really seen is strongly worded letters and useless fluff with no teeth to it

1

Anonymous just_peachy_ 4w

some dems are trying, but they’re in a tight space because they are in the minority right now. but also if kamala was president this wouldn’t be happening

1

Anonymous #2 4w

Ok here’s a little thought experiment. It is a fact that senators and representatives are legally allowed to inspect federal buildings. ICE detention centers fall under this. Why haven’t any of them gone in with press? And this doesn’t require a majority, it requires one person and a few people. Haven’t seen anything from them despite press being an extremely powerful tool

1

Anonymous just_peachy_ 4w

they have though, a lot of them

1

Anonymous #2 4w

they keep being denied entry

1

Anonymous #2 4w

Where? Where have dems gone inside the detention centers

1

Anonymous just_peachy_ 4w

i know Padilla and Schiff of the top of my head. i think maybe Talarico also

1

Anonymous #2 4w

Ok? Thats illegal. You then come back with the Marshalls and cops to get in or threaten arrest. Again, totally legal thing to do

1

Anonymous just_peachy_ 4w

Like if they’re being denied entry the response isn’t “well shucks, better luck next time”

1

Anonymous just_peachy_ 4w

they’re suing right now, it’s all over the news. do you guys not read the news

1

Anonymous #2 4w

I do, but also I think it’s important to demand more than just lawsuits that the administration will ignore. They need to be doing more and showing results. Like even if I was fine with democrat policy as it currently stands, don’t you think that we should elect politicians who are actually effective and get shit done?

1

Anonymous just_peachy_ 4w

yeah but why would you risk electing Trump over that????? that’s my whole question. demand everything you want however you want but don’t screw with the general election when the other option is Donald Trump

6

Anonymous #2 4w

Ok but as bad as Trump is, in the end his administration is constantly tripping over itself. They constantly fuck up and fail to fulfill most their obligations. Look at Epstein, grocery prices, anything like that. Additionally, what other leverage do we have against the current DNC? You can’t keep rewarding bad behavior

1

Anonymous just_peachy_ 4w

a lot of people are getting really badly hurt and the admin is causing serious damage to our institutions, economy, and international relationships that will have much bigger effects than just this presidency

1

Anonymous #2 4w

And I’m aware of that but thinking the dems are capable of fixing that damage as the party currently stands is hilarious. Like fuck, the Biden DoJ prosecuted exactly zero people who voted against certifying the 2020 election even after J6th happened. Literally treasonous behavior and yet people got off with no punishment

1

Anonymous just_peachy_ 4w

but why on earth would you think the solution to the dems not being able to fix the damage is to bring back the guy who did the damage and let him do a ton more

1

Anonymous #2 4w

like if your sink is overflowing the first thing you do is turn off the faucet not yell at your roommate about the best way to get the water out of the carpet

1

Anonymous #2 4w

He shouldn’t have been able to come back to politics in the first place. In a world where dems are useful, Trump and his cabinet were arrested immediately after Biden was sworn in and all put on trial for J6th. Legally he had every right to. Same with all the others who voted against election certification. And guardrails were put up to prevent such things happening in the future. But we don’t live in that world because the dems didn’t have the guts to do it. Trumps return is in part dems fault

1

Anonymous just_peachy_ 4w

I agree with all your criticism of the dems I just don’t agree with your method of getting it across to them. Trump = really bad. Dems = bad at stopping bad. But why would you then be like “let’s just not vote, that will let Trump back in and really teach those dems a lesson”

1

Anonymous #2 4w

Because the only way you can truly make your voice heard by the dems as they currently stand is getting bad ones out of office and getting new ones in. You cannot continue to be a party of mediocrity because at this point it is simply not enough. What you keep doing is thinking I believe Trump and conservatives being in power is a good thing. It isn’t. But if the “solution” is voting in people who do nothing, that’s not an actual solution

1

Anonymous just_peachy_ 4w

but you got the bad one out and the worse one in. there was no good one alternative in that election

1

Anonymous #2 4w

And that’s the exact problem. There is no good candidate in the election. In the short term what Trump is doing is awful, but to save the country from ruin, you need the dems to run a candidate that is actually good. “Good enough” isn’t good enough anymore. Dems have shown consistently they are not willing to challenge the previous administrations in any meaningful way. All that voting in the party as it stands will do is continue our current trajectory on cruise control

1

Anonymous just_peachy_ 4w

so thats exactly what i’m saying, you wanted trump in office to teach the dems a lesson. im saying that’s a bad strategy because the short term harm is really significant and not just short term and also there’s no guarantee it works. especially if you guys have schrodinger’s votes that only matter sometimes

1

Anonymous #2 4w

also its really unfair to the people who are being harmed who didn’t agree to be part of your plan

1

Anonymous #2 4w

Buddy, I am transgender in a deep red state. I’m extremely and painfully aware of the harm taking place right now. But you know what else is harming me? The dems currently doing nothing abt it

1

Anonymous just_peachy_ 4w

I take it you learned in school about the bystander effect and how it can create an environment for bullying. You don’t deal with people by being passive

1

Anonymous just_peachy_ 4w

no one ever said be passive omg it’s not “do nothing” it’s “you shouldn’t have done that specific thing”

1

Anonymous #2 4w

also i never meant that you’re not harmed i meant that you fully chose and accepted being harmed in exchange for the long term benefits you think will come. valid choice to make for yourself but it also got forced on others

1

Anonymous #2 4w

Every choice gets forced on others. There will always be a decent sized group that disagrees with the direction another takes. Every time. If we want to talk about forcing things on others, I could talk all day about how many people get voted in I have fundamental disagreements with. It’s a democracy

1

Anonymous just_peachy_ 4w

wow i cant do this anymore

1

Anonymous #2 4w

I’m just tired of this apologia and acting like we can’t do better is all. Like I can point out so many times the horrendous shit dems have done and how they continue to fumble the ball or cave to republican pressure but idk how to get it through to you

-3

Anonymous just_peachy_ 4w

why is it so hard for you to understand that i am fully aware of all that is terrible about the democrats, but i still think your strategy of letting trump back in was wrong. it is possible for someone to be well educated and intelligent and still disagree with your methods

1

Anonymous #2 4w

Like I promise I’m not even mad at you, I’m just trying to point out that we can’t keep going in circles over and over expecting different results

1

Anonymous just_peachy_ 4w

We know, you just don’t listen. I keep getting notifications for this whole conversation. You just want to complain and we get than your hurt and that the democrats aren’t doing enough but Trump and Maga are going to make things so much worse. We all WANT better than the democrats but we CAN’T take more Trump.

6

Anonymous #2 4w

And I’m saying it’s due to Dem inaction that led us here, and unless you have a better way of finding some leverage against their power, our vote is our best voice for the states it does matter. I’ve never once advocated voting republican or said they’re in the right

1

Anonymous just_peachy_ 4w

1. protest 2. vote in local and state elections 3. donate money 4. write your representatives 5. run for office if you want 6. support preferred candidates online during their campaigns 7. advocate for overturning Citizens United 8. register other people to vote 9. advocate against gerrymandering 10. have a freaking substack or something just DON’T NOT VOTE WHEN TRUMP IS RUNNING

1

Anonymous OP 4w

I just want to know what your best idea is for getting better dems in office. Because if you have a better idea then getting the bad ones out by showing we don’t support them and not voting for them, I’d love to hear it. I’m totally open to a different strategy if it’s feasible. I want there to be a different strategy and one that is less risky

1

Anonymous #2 4w

I agree with some of those! A decent amount actually! My problem with a lot of them is that it puts money and power back in the hands of the same democrats that are failing us. And I think for very powerful dems such as Schumer or Jeffries those strategies are just not enough

1

Anonymous just_peachy_ 4w

I hear you, and yes their complacency has heavily contributed to where we are today. I don’t have a solution to that issue, all I know is that if we keep giving Maga more power things are going to get alot worse alot faster and that scares me.

6

Anonymous just_peachy_ 4w

great but how does putting Trump back in office make it more likely that Jeffries and Schumer will change their minds or step down? how does it clear the way for their replacements to make any kind of meaningful improvements? what is the point of taking power away from the democrats when the only other person to give it to is republicans who will do everything in their power to hold on to it indefinitely?

1

Anonymous OP 4w

I think it has to be weighed on a case by case basis to an extent too. Dems who are going up against, idk, someone like Mitt Romney should absolutely have to work for their votes bc we need a stronger Dem party. And if they loose, sure the other guy sucks, but he isn’t a psycho. But if a Dem is running against John McNazi, then yeah keep John McNazi out at any cost. But when the next election comes around, make them work more for your re-election vote

1

Anonymous just_peachy_ 4w

who is John McNazi if not Trump

1

Anonymous #2 4w

Trump is a megalomaniac and an authoritarian, but he’s not a Nazi. Him being a Nazi would require him to believe in something higher than himself, which he can’t. Not that I don’t think he is a danger, he is, but the fact we have dems still agreeing with him on lots is a sign that something has to be done abt them. This isn’t just a presidential thing, I’m talking congress

1