Anonymous #3 10w

I read it as a christian and changed my worldview because of it

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Anonymous #2 10w

Explain

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Anonymous #3 10w

I didn’t. I truly wanted to believe. What is life without believing there is some greater truth out there? I still believe there is something just not Christianity in the way we think. Genesis 1 suggests a different order of creation than Genesis 2. The gospel differs on who visited the tomb first, how many people were there, and what they were told. Matthew 27:5 says Judas hanged himself, while Acts 1:18 says he fell headlong and burst open. I have an entire list of all these contradictions.

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Anonymous #3 10w

Plus, there are instances where in the Bible it says God is void of jealousy and then on the next page it says God is jealous so which is it? There are a lot of contradictions like this with traits of God. Now I understand the Bible was written by humans, or at least that’s the justification. When that is stated, I have a problem believing and trusting in this book that was written by humans.

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Anonymous #3 10w

If you analyze the Bible from a human psychological perspective, it is much more likely that humans wrote this book to give us some hope, or idea of an afterlife and set some morals. The Bible is flawed. It claims that plants were created before the sun but biologically that makes no sense. I study mathematics and cannot believe something blindly unless proven. I can’t base my whole belief on a book made by humans without proven basis.

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Anonymous #3 10w

What do you need me to explain? I’m happy to clarify. The bible is full of inconsistencies, the spiritual claims are unsupported, the moral claims are questionable at best when it comes to treatment of minorities

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Anonymous #2 10w

I was also a Christian when I read it, but actually reading it has led me to deconstruct more and more.

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Anonymous #2 10w

I totally agreed!!

3

Anonymous OP 10w

Yeah that’s exactly what happened to me

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Anonymous #2 10w

Most historically verified literature in all of human history but I’m sure you’ve identified those inaccuracies to a tee.

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Anonymous #3 10w

if you re-read what I said. I said that the spiritual claims are unsupported. And that’s a fact. There’s no substantive proof of any of the spiritual or supernatural claims being true. There are contradictions within the bible when it comes to morals and how to treat others, etc. I’m sure you’re not interested in speaking about this in good faith but I will continue to do so regardless of your intent to drive this to a reddit debate

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Anonymous OP 10w

Fair, and I know that there are many christians that believe the bible is the direct word for word given by God, but just as the true Christian church has been deviated by humanity, I would account these small differences between biblical versions to human manipulation. I think that the story of the Bible is best looked at thematically and the beautiful relation between hundreds of books that were all compiled together over thousands of years.

2

Anonymous OP 10w

Also the bible is the most historically verified literature in all of human history. Your logic for not believing in the Bible’s word would also make you disbelieve half of your history classes.

0

Anonymous #2 10w

There were multiple eye witness accounts of the resurrection of Jesus Christ

-1

Anonymous #3 10w

Okay and? How do you know those claims are true? People die for beliefs they believe are true all of the time. People are capable of misremembering or accidentally misleading others. Obviously you don’t believe every single claim that’s been written down is true, so what was the external proof that verified those claims?

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Anonymous #2 10w

What is the external proof that anything ever happened in history before written language? You’re just digging the hole here with bad logic

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Anonymous #2 10w

Also many of the people that died saying what they saw wouldn’t even be considered christians. Why would they die on that hill if they didn’t even believe in it?

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Anonymous #3 10w

No in history, there is more evidence than just human word. There is a proven basis in history not Christianity. There are treaties signed, factual documental evidence, soil evidence showing battles took place, and much more. I also believe a lot of the history was manipulated, so I don’t believe what my textbook says entirely. That’s why I study math. Also the language in the bible justifying rape and the ideology that women should submit to their husbands is something I will never believe.

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Anonymous #3 10w

« Historically verified » haha yea by who Christianss? The text with the most basic contradictions is the most historically verified literature. Give me a break.

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Anonymous #3 10w

Anyone could have written that’s what they said 🤷‍♀️

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Anonymous #3 10w

Or it could all just be made up for control and some moral basis.

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Anonymous OP 10w

Everything written down in history is taken from human word, if you really think on it. Also, those verses are interpreted as such. Plus, if you actually studied the Bible you would know that those old laws were for Judaism. Christianity is the belief that God died as his only son to forgive all of humanity for breaking those almost impossible rules so we could join him again in heaven. When you try and nitpick the bible you don’t see the larger themes at play that truly convey the entire belief

1

Anonymous OP 10w

By every historian ever. No one has ever proven a factual inaccuracy in the Bible

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Anonymous OP 10w

If you think you could possibly collaborate the recollections of hundreds of people across thousands of years to all “make something up” I don’t know what to think. They didn’t have AI to create the mass propaganda of the modern age.

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Anonymous #2 10w

I firmly believe that if reading the Bible one time makes you believe you are an expert at interpreting it and it makes you no longer a Christian, you could not have truly been a Christian beforehand.

-3

Anonymous #3 10w

Alexander conquered lands from Greece to Egypt and India. This is proven by his silver coins, the ruins of cities named after him. Wanna know when that happened? I’ll give you a hint, before Jesus was born. Our understanding of our modern sports tradition in Greece, 776 BCE shocker that we know that? Wanna know how? the Disk of Iphitos. So what’s your proof Jesus died and came back to life 3 days later. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof

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Anonymous #3 10w

Dying for a belief doesn’t make the belief true.

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Anonymous #2 10w

History is written by the conquerors. There’s reasons why all of that evidence was created, bc those conquerors wanted to live forever as gods, myths, legends, whatever you wanna call it. There is still physical evidence of Jesus, as well as all that is written. But just because he wasn’t creating artifacts and relics for himself doesn’t mean there is no evidence

1

Anonymous #2 10w

But you didn’t even answer why they would die for something they didn’t even believe in? Like the idea behind him? If someone you hated so badly and celebrated his death came back to life, and they threatened and eventually killed you for saying over and over that you witnessed his resurrection, what reason you have to not back down from that belief?

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Anonymous #3 10w

I’m not asserting that is exactly what happened. I’m asking how you confirmed that wasn’t the case.

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Anonymous #2 10w

If you don’t understand how absurdly difficult it is to coordinate “making something up” on that large of a scale across such a long timeframe and so many different dialects and cultures, I don’t know how to put it more clearly

-2

Anonymous #3 10w

I didn’t assert they made something up either. I’m explicitly stating plausible scenarios that you are saying could mot logically exist. Now since you’re making a positive claim about this one thing happening, it is on you to prove that’s what happened. Tell me how you concluded logically and using external evidence that Jesus died and came back to life 72 hours later and entered Heaven.

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Anonymous OP 10w

Also, with you saying you study mathematics, how do you see all of the mathematical framework designed out perfectly and not see there is a designer behind all of it? Do you think in all of physics that everything was randomly created out of nothingness and became a very fine-tuned, balanced reality with math being the language? You literally have dedicated your life to the study of the language of the creator.

-2

Anonymous #3 10w

Why do you assume there is a creator behind math? Bad argument

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Anonymous #4 10w

I think a lot of people tend to get stuck in the idea that belief is a choice when it comes to religion

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Anonymous #2 10w

I’m just trying to avoid hell if it exists

2

Anonymous #4 10w

which, fair. I’d question what authority figure would subject its own people to that but I completely understand the fear

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Anonymous #2 10w

“Or it could all be made up for control and some moral basis” sounds like saying you they made it up. Also, as I have said, multiple written accounts of eye witnesses saying they saw him 3 days after he had been buried. The tomb had been sealed shut with a very large boulder with guards watching. There was no remaining body in the tomb. There was proof he existed as a person as well, but no corpse left behind. Considering heaven is outside the world, I doubt you could get physical evidence on it

0

Anonymous #3 10w

I didn’t say that. I’m #2, not OP. Okay so your evidence is, multiple written claims. Are written claims inherently true? As a logical premise

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Anonymous #2 10w

Hell is simply being apart from God. And God is good. He actually sacrificed his Son to welcome us to join him. If you reject and blaspheme God, he rejects you from his home. Just like any logical person.

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Anonymous #3 10w

Sacrificing his son for what exactly? What’s the threat if he doesn’t do that

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Anonymous #2 10w

If it’s written claims of multiple first-hand witnesses from different backgrounds, I believe that gives historically validated evidence. Also our law system relies on witness testimonies in many cases for evidence.

0

Anonymous #2 10w

He sacrificed his Son, a physical manifestation of God, for all of our past and future sins of the entire human race. Every bad thing that anyone has ever or will ever do. All of the pain and suffering, taken by our creator as a mortal man. A pain so excruciating it killed the bone and blood of God himself. God is the opposite of sin. If you can’t accept his sacrifice, he literally cannot be with you.

3

Anonymous #3 10w

He took on the weight of those sins so you don’t have to. That’s what Hell is, the pain and suffering of all the sins you have committed. And sin was a choice made by humans when God gave us the chance

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Anonymous #3 10w

Sins, what are sins?

3

Anonymous #3 10w

You didn’t answer my question.

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Anonymous #2 10w

A house is made by a builder. A book is written by an author. A painting is made by an artist. The entirety of exist is made by…nothing? A very precise, complex, perfectly fine-tuned to where even the smallest change could turn very reality into chaos. Everything explained by a perfect mathematical framework. All of that happens from nothing? From chance?

-2

Anonymous #2 10w

Read. I’m giving you a real-world answer, not some impractical philosophical jargon.

-2

Anonymous #2 10w

Impurifications of the soul.

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Anonymous #3 10w

Impure according to what standard?

4

Anonymous #3 10w

It’s not impractical. I’m asking you a question that tests your logic. Are written claims inherently true, yes or no?

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Anonymous #3 10w

You being dense won’t change the fact that you have to prove you claim.

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Anonymous #2 10w

You’re getting down to the “what is truth” question so I decline to answer because it’s a waste of both our times.

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Anonymous #2 10w

A standard created by a being that is all-knowing and all existing. God that would know a lot more about what is truthfully right and just than any human could ever claim.

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Anonymous #3 10w

Just because you ask the impossible questions doesn’t mean you’ve proven any point.

1

Anonymous #3 10w

idk man if you study the human body enough you realise everything is not really "perfectly fine-tuned" with us. we happen to be complex creatures but there's a lot of weird useless stuff we still have through hundreds of thousands of years of evolution.

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Anonymous #3 10w

Analogies aren’t proof of anything. An argument isn’t proof. It’s an argument. Half of these are questions and are reliant on something called the gap assumption fallacy Everything was made out of nothing? Nope. Must be God.

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Anonymous #3 10w

It’s an impossible question to ask you whether you believe everything someone says, got it. Apparently you do.

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Anonymous #3 10w

If you ignore all the factual inaccuracies and unsubstantiated claims of supernatural events

3

Anonymous #3 10w

So God created a standard that would be imposed upon humans, which would send humans to hell (away from God) and so he sent himself/his son to earth to save humans from the standard he set. That’s what happened?

2

Anonymous #6 10w

As much as I respect people’s relious views it makes me glad to hear about other atheists honestly, makes me feel less alone in it at least (I wish there was a secular students club or something at my school)

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Anonymous #3 10w

Math is not created. It is discovered and proven.

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Anonymous OP 10w

I’m going to be honest with you OP, I think you’re wasting your time trying to explain stuff to them

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Anonymous #3 10w

There are so many things in math and physics we don’t understand and are still discovering. PDEs are barely understood by brightest. It is not perfectly designed out. Even the system we have now has a lot of inconsistencies. Science gives us answers to how we were developed. The big bang and evolution are very plausible. We are not perfectly made. Why are there children born with genetic defects? Animals from 100s of years ago have changed drastically through evolution. Why aren’t humans thesame

7

Anonymous #6 10w

They seem like they struggle in the critical thought department

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Anonymous #6 10w

I agree. I know I can’t change their mind. They will have to do the inner work and decide where they stand themselves. It’s natural to want to believe there is something that comes after. I still long for something. I just can’t live my life through arbitrary rules that make no sense. I know it’s wrong to cheat,murder, lie, steal, disrespect people, and etc without some book telling me so.

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Anonymous #2 10w

Cope.

-1

Anonymous OP 10w

I study physics myself. There is no better explanation why everything in the universe works the way it does unless it was masterfully designed. We as humans discover math, but where does the math come from? I’m not talking about everything as a higher level is perfectly made, I’m talking that the math and particle physics are all aligned in a precise way to make reality exist the way it does

-1

Anonymous #3 10w

I think the irony of your “critical thinking” is that it digs you in a hole where you constantly look for answers but are never able to step back and see them

-2

Anonymous #3 10w

You keep getting mixed up on who is saying what lol. Your entire argument is a gap assumption fallacy, do you know what that means?

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Anonymous #2 10w

Yes, just about that. But that standard defines what being pure, entirely sinless is. If you want to question the right and justness of an all-knowing, eternal being that created the entirety of the universe, that’s on you for being so egocentric.

-2

Anonymous #2 10w

You both sound the same. Lost with no direction.

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Anonymous #3 10w

honestly, if yikyak comments are causing you to have a crisis of faith, maybe just take a breather and think about things on your own. It seems like you're trying to convince yourself more than anyone else.

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Anonymous #5 10w

Talking about on the particle level

0

Anonymous #2 10w

Yes, but your arguments have also had their own fallacies and I don’t want to waste my time any longer. I beg you to give Jesus another chance, for your own sake. God bless

-2

Anonymous #5 10w

Not at all the case. I just hate to see ignorance and lack of faith in this world.

-2

Anonymous #3 10w

So it’s good to impose standards that you didn’t have to impose, which if broken or failed, cause people to suffer?

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Anonymous #3 10w

There’s a certain irony in you telling me to “read” when you’re struggling to read who said what.

8

Anonymous #3 10w

After refusing to answer simple questions, and reasserting things with no proof, you’re ending the conversation. All while still standing pridefully that the sly comments you made were almost always made towards the wrong person. You not apologizing for that, even though again, prideful, and then taking the opportunity to assert one more time without proof your fairy tale is real

4

Anonymous OP 10w

Very thing makes sense but humans most definetly have changed a lot through evolution now

4