Anonymous #1 21h

for context, the subject of argument someone identifying as an “AFAB demigirl” who identified as trans, and someone else called them transmasc.

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Anonymous #1 21h

this comment is a response to calling them transmasc, which is weird to me because language on gender is very limited & a lot of people don’t like AGAB language, so I don’t really know what other alternative there is if transmasc is exclusively on the “masc” side (which imo is also an overtly simplified line to draw). idk if I’m still missing smth because it still seems weirdly label police-y

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Anonymous #2 21h

I could see that since that’s where ASAB/AGAB language came from, but intersex people werent part of the conversation here

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Anonymous OP 21h

again tho I’m asking this so I can learn the nuance of there is any. I’m just not seeing it 😭

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Anonymous OP 21h

Yeah an AFAB demigirl isn’t transmasc. My thought process on the transmasc and transfem labels is you have to go across the gender spectrum since trans as a prefix means across. In this situation would trans nonbinary or trans demigirl work? (If Demi girl isn’t under the nonbinary umbrella please correct me)

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Anonymous OP 20h

That makes sense to me. Transmasc to me means transitioning in a masculine direction, not just “was afab and is trans” like a nonbinary person isn’t necessarily transmasc, they could be very neutral in internal gender and presentation. A gender fluid person isn’t transmasc necessarily, as they’re fluid through all genders. Demigirl to me isn’t transmasc because they’re still part girl and probably not transitioning in a masc direction?

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Anonymous #1 20h

demigirl 100% is a non-binary identity, yeah. and those are ok alternatives, but they’re not descriptive in the same way transmasc is (e.g. they could refer to a transfem demigirl instead). and I mostly don’t get where the line is for “across the gender spectrum,” either

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Anonymous #3 20h

Like a nonbinary person who was assigned female and is now nonbinary and still feminine wouldn’t be trans masculine. (Unless of course they specifically identify that way, wich the person you’re talking about does not)

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Anonymous #3 20h

I’ve seen people whose identities fall under “transmasc” identify as *not* transmasc, so I definitely don’t believe anyone HAS to identify as anything. the comment read to me as saying that a demigirl CANT identify as transmasc, which was very ick & why I made this post. if you’re saying the commenter was also for self-determination, then I think it was just a misunderstanding lol

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Anonymous OP 20h

Was this here? Can you link to the post?

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Anonymous #3 20h

it wasn’t here, and I think that discourse isnt allowed on the other community, so I didn’t want to ask there since it’d be continuing discourse (which is against the rules there). I dont think it’s hard to guess the community though 😭

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Anonymous #4 20h

So, for some nonbinary people who were AFAB it may not feel reflective of their identity. I know also some fem trans men who hate having transmasc used to describe them (they’re not *masculine*, they’re men).

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Anonymous #4 20h

I think that AGAB language is often used in ways that are bioessentialist and/or transphobic. So I’m critical of when it is used if it’s actually *necessary* or if there were contextually appropriate alternatives (ex. AFAB people need gynecological care vs people with vaginas need gynecological care). So if people are using transmasc as a way to refer to AGAB, because they realize referring to AGAB would be inappropriate, I’m going to be critical of that too.

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Anonymous OP 20h

A demigirl could be transmasc, but calling a demigirl transmasc *just* because they said they were AFAB is what’s problematic.

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Anonymous #4 20h

Does any of this make sense? I’m happy to unpack/elaborate if you have questions.

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Anonymous #4 20h

this aligns with my general understanding and beliefs, it just sucks that we’re stuck with AGAB language so often. wish there were better general-use terms for our experiences that didn’t put focus on what we’re trying to not be :/

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Anonymous #4 20h

I can see that, the comment didn’t read that way to me at all before but I guess I can see it now

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Anonymous #4 20h

Do you feel this way about the label of trans man and trans woman as well?

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Anonymous #1 20h

What do you mean?

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Anonymous #4 20h

Like do you feel that label of trans man and trans women are used in the same bioessentialist way since they imply a gender assigned at birth

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Anonymous #1 19h

Trans man and trans women do not necessarily infer gender assigned at birth

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Anonymous #3 19h

Is the definition of a trans woman not someone who was assigned male at birth and transitioned into being a woman?

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Anonymous #1 19h

tbf I know a guy who’s AFAB & not intersex who is exolicitly *not* a trans man, he’s just a man. so maybe it’s a reference to those experiences?

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Anonymous #1 19h

Intersex people can be trans women. If someone’s intersex and assigned female but goes through a testosterone based puberty and later transitions with estrogen she’d have the transition experience of a trans woman pretty much.

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Anonymous #1 19h

No. I also don’t think transmasc/transfem are necessarily bioessentialist, my point was about AGAB often being used in bioessentialist ways. If someone is using transmasc/transfem as a more “polite” way to reference someone’s ASAB (especially in regard to someone who doesn’t identify that way themself), *that* is what’s bioessentialist. It’s about misplaced focus on cissexist/perisexist assignment instead of trans self-determination.

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Anonymous #4 19h

Thanks for the clarification I didn’t understand what you were saying and thank you for

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Anonymous OP 19h

that sounds like internalized transphobia/a personal label preference tbh. like there are nonbinary people who don’t identify as trans, but being nonbinary still falls within the trans umbrella.

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Anonymous #5 19h

yeah it is a personal label preference. he’s not into toxic masculinity or anything so I’m not concerned about it being internalized transphobia or anything. is also very supportive & normal about my own gender

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Anonymous OP 9h

if we’re talking about the label “transmasc”, then yes transmasc intersex people are definitely a part of the conversation. if you wanna talk about trans people, you also need to include trans intersex people. excluding them as outliers is harmful. that exclusion is exactly what transphobes do all the time when arguing against the existence and validity of trans people. they fall under the label so why wouldn’t the conversation include them?

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Anonymous #6 6h

intersex people were not a part of this particular conversation as the person in question was not intersex.

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