Anonymous #2 17w

umm that's literally what marxism is all about. u should check it out.

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Anonymous #3 17w

Just as an entirely capitalist society wouldn’t work out

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Anonymous ellie 17w

all that is in theory but in practice people suck, will be selfish and greedy, and ruin everything for everyone

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Anonymous #2 17w

i mean but this isn't necessarily true and exactly why marx and lenin warned of opportunists.

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Anonymous ellie 17w

no this is definitely what would happen at least in the U.S. ain’t no way people will be willing to do shit just for the good of the community. everyone wants to do their own thing

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Anonymous #4 17w

Exactly

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Anonymous #2 17w

okay yeah that's not what communism is. it's mainly geared towards creating an equitable society for everyone through making things like wages livable—sticking the means of production back in the hands of the workers. i think you're thinking of communes or mutual aid.

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Anonymous #4 17w

yeah it’s too optimistic of a theory

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Anonymous ellie 17w

but people don’t want equitable they wanna be better than others

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Anonymous #2 17w

the bourgeoisie want better than others. the rest of us are just trying to live. this is why revolution happens—to overthrow those who are trying to shaft the rest of us

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Anonymous ellie 17w

you really think people in the working class are incapable of selfishness?

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Anonymous #2 17w

i mean obviously selfishness is in human nature. communism exists to counter extreme selfishness. like the billionaires hoarding away all that money—or companies not paying their workers a living wage

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Anonymous ellie 17w

We aren’t a collectivist species and never will be. We value individualism and pursuit of happiness. You can point out inequalities without thinking the state needs to control every aspect of one’s life, ESPECIALLY if the only semi-“successful” attempts all turned into authoritarianism…like every heterodoxical political movement.

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Anonymous #5 17w

i mean we are collectivist though. we've been collectivist for a while now. many parts of this country have a huge emphasis on collectivism including Appalachia—which is where i'm at.

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Anonymous #5 17w

prior to capitalism we lived in collectivist groups. cultures beyond the west literally have a major emphasis on collectivism.

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Anonymous ellie 17w

We’re not though. We have individual wants, needs, and goals. It’s not for the state to dictate that. Communism fails because central planning is cumbersome and slow. Capitalism can be refined with socialism, but to say it needs to be replaced with communism would be a gross misstep into a massive reduction in quality of life from both political and economic standpoints.

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Anonymous #5 17w

okay yeah collectivism doesn't mean that people don't have individual needs. it just means their's an emphasis on the wellbeing of you as a group. i completely disagree with you. the only way forward is if we take the means of production away from the hands of specific individuals and give them back to the workers.

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Anonymous ellie 17w

there's blah im tired. methinks its time for bed

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Anonymous ellie 17w

As if Stalinism didn’t take the means of production away from specific individuals…and give it to other specific individuals.

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Anonymous #5 17w

okay stalinism is stalinism. i'm talking about marxist-Leninist ideology.

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Anonymous #5 17w

i in no way think stalin was good

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Anonymous ellie 17w

Yeah. The largest and most successful form of Marxist-Leninism. The other would be Maoism. You can only peel a banana so many times.

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Anonymous #5 17w

yeah no... just as there are many forms of capitalism there are many forms of communism too. how it's implemented makes a huge difference

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Anonymous ellie 17w

Yeah, and one is antithetical to its own ideological principles. Lenin outright said the masses needed an intellectual vanguard. How is that not your “specific individuals” in a nutshell?

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Anonymous #5 17w

Marxism is Marxism. Stalinism is different just like Maoism is different. just like trotskyist ideologies are different

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Anonymous #5 17w

lenin said that the intellectual vanguard is needed to guide the proletariat to a revolution—not to gatekeep information and wealth. the proletariat cannot develop the capacity for class consciousness beyond trade union consciousness without people to teach theory.

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Anonymous ellie 17w

i mean it's pretty basic stuff. you need people who know theory and are educated about it to teach theory so that more can become educated about it.

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Anonymous ellie 17w

Except that theory still continues to remain a theory due to its failure to actually manifest into anything longterm. The only lasting communist state left standing is China, and even they liberalized their own economy in the 80s and 90s because they were on a collision course with economic fallout the same way the USSR was. The only communist thing left with China is the state authoritarianism. I’ll take a slow decaying system over a failed system any day of the week.

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Anonymous #5 17w

i mean that's in a large part to western intervention crushing nascent communist states via coups or civil wars.

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Anonymous ellie 17w

So you’re saying your system is incredibly weak to external threats…how is that supporting your system?

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Anonymous #5 17w

i mean i would argue that when you're forming a new system of government in your country then you'll be susceptible to outside threats regardless—especially from a bigger power that has a vested interest in your collapse and failure.

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Anonymous ellie 17w

The United States is almost 250 years old. China as a state is THOUSANDS of years old. You using the poor lil’ innocent communist states like Cuba or Venezuela as examples for Western intervention when the one of the largest states collapsed on its own and the other is essentially moving towards free markets. It’s disingenuous.

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Anonymous #5 17w

the china that currently exists is way different than the China that historically has existed. they've faced collapse too—as every empire has and will. it's not really disingenuous honestly. Also the US has also almost collapsed on its own several times and is currently moving towards a collapse of its own with zero intervention

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Anonymous #5 17w

also cuba is doing fine, as is vietnam

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Anonymous ellie 17w

oh yeah sorry. minus the embargo that we have on them.

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Anonymous ellie 17w

ALMOST isn’t HAS though. To say that the United States doesn’t face external pressure from foreign adversaries is a very naive way of looking at the world. We face just as many attacks as China and Russia receive from the West. It’s not a “the West hurts everyone else, but they also hurt themselves” kind of world.

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Anonymous #5 17w

yeah okay i can see we're getting nowhere so u have a good night 🫡. if ur interested in actually learning some more about what communism is about i recommend u look into theory. i also recommend you look into how western intervention has kind of fucked everyone up on a global level. that is exactly what kind of world it is. lol

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Anonymous ellie 17w

I suggest you read anything that is specifically geared towards affirming your biases. I’m tired of communists and socialists saying “just read more theory! It’s right there!” when the theory has been dogshit for the past century.

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Anonymous #5 17w

you wouldn't know as you haven't actually read it 🤷‍♀️ 🫶

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Anonymous ellie 17w

Das Kapital isn’t a hard read. That’s some sick gatekeeping you’re doing though.

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Anonymous #5 17w

yeah that's not the only work in theory buddy lol.

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Anonymous #5 17w

there are plenty of other foundational works that answer the questions you've been asking me and it's obvious you haven't read them—nor capital—as it clearly outlines some of what you're asking. as you said. not hard reads. so maybe actually read them

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Anonymous ellie 17w

I don’t get why you’re trying to convince me that you’re reading theory when we both know you’re getting your views from video essays and Twitlonger threads.

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Anonymous #5 17w

i'm a foundational member of my local party. knowing theory is kind of the gig. lol

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Anonymous ellie 17w

“If you just read the theory, you’d actually be for it!” Before you keep insisting on circular reasoning by begging the question over and over, maybe instead of reading more “theory” you should pick up some philosophical literature on logic.

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Anonymous #5 17w

i'm not gonna sit here and argue with you about theory you haven't read and probably never will lol

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Anonymous ellie 17w

you do know people can educate themselves on this stuff and still disagree right?

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Anonymous ellie 17w

Because just like you don’t believe I’ve read any theory, I don’t believe you’ve read any theory. You’ve only made excuses. I can own the fact that capitalism has deep faults and can assess the world around me…you’ve only made excuses for the failures of your ideology to obfuscate blame. Hence “it’s the West’s fault!” or “but that wasn’t real communism!”. This is why a strong philosophical background kind of matters when actually forming a foundation for your worldview.

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Anonymous #2 17w

It’s an example of the huge educational problem in this country. That’s why I called it circular reasoning when they’re so flabbergasted that someone would disagree…because again, if someone actually read theory, how would they not support it?!? It makes no logical sense

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Anonymous #5 17w

i mean as a marxist-leninist of course i'm going to see the failings in maoism or stalinism because they're bastardized versions of Marx's ideology. theory shows us exactly why. you've shown a fundamental misunderstanding of the very basic foundational principles of communism and that would take way longer to sit here and go back and forth on than just telling you to read theory—which i've been doing. you want more of an idea of the ideology you're talking out of your ass about? read theory.

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Anonymous #5 17w

you're not interested in that however. you're interested in using the same tired "gotchas" all the while completely misunderstanding what you're yapping about. so goodnight!

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Anonymous #2 17w

yeah, however it's quite apparent that number 5 has not done so and has no interest in doing so.

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Anonymous ellie 17w

Nah. I have a pretty good grasp. I appreciate the concern though.

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Anonymous #5 17w

yeah likely story so that's why you're yapping about us not being collectivist when a huge amount of the world's cultures are collectivist? like it's just silly shit 😭

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Anonymous ellie 17w

different cultures sure but the U.S. will be overthrown before dropping its die hard individualism

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Anonymous #2 17w

go ahead and look up how much of the world is made up of collectivist cultures. i would ballpark around 60-70%

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Anonymous #2 17w

but yeah i agree. which is why revolutions are necessary

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Anonymous ellie 17w

uh like a militant one?

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Anonymous #2 17w

um yes?? a peaceful revolution is literally not possible. the powerful will always want to cling to power

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Anonymous ellie 17w

I think it’s more likely that you’ve made an ass out of yourself because you’re just repeating the same talking points every communist uses and you’re resorting back to “just read theory pleaaaase! Don’t call out the inconsistencies of my ideology or ask me anything outside of my Fallout 3 dialogue tree”. Fascism and Communism really are two birds of a feather.

2

Anonymous #5 17w

it's hard to call out inconsistencies when you're literally arguing about several different ideologies that you can't tell the difference of and have no interest in understanding. like thanks for yapping about stalin and mao. most of us literally don't fuck with them but okay...

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Anonymous ellie 17w

yeah so i think trying to go to war with the most powerful military on the planet is insane- no they will not join the revolution bc they’d be labeled as domestic terrorists (which they would be if they’re attacking people) so i think a modern revolution actually would be peaceful yeah. slowly getting people with the right ideologies into positions of power and changing public opinion through activism

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Anonymous #5 17w

like please keep talking about why stalin is so bad while im out here repping a fundamentally different brand of socialism. it leads to me telling u exactly what ive told u. go read theory if u want an actual conversation

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Anonymous #5 17w

plus if you wanna talk theory talk about how the originators of these theories had no understanding of matrices of domination and there’s no realistic consideration for how oppression of minorities fits in

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Anonymous #2 17w

i mean the russian revolution was relatively nonviolent too. you had key members of the military setting down arms because they wouldn't fight their friends and family. revolution is inherently violent in some aspects, but i don't think it's as violent as ur picturing

-1

Anonymous ellie 17w

God you’re boring. I guess the next time someone starts calling out capitalism I’ll just start using your logic. That’s not even capitalism! Most of us real capitalists don’t even fuck with Milton Friedman!

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Anonymous #5 17w

i mean apart from the fact that we're specifically talking about american capitalism 😭

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Anonymous ellie 17w

Not real capitalism ❌ I reject that assertion.

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Anonymous ellie 17w

man we are in the U.S. in the big 2025 it’s more than a stretch to be like “it worked then so there’s no reason it won’t work now!!” like i’m not being harsh but that’s kinda delusional

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Anonymous #2 17w

i mean there are. opression of minorities is a direct result of class struggles. the bourgeoise are the ones who form the policies that lead to this oppression which is why in order for queer liberation to happen we also need workers liberation

1

Anonymous #2 17w

i mean not really. same concept still applies. the military is primarily made up of indigent populations. they wouldn't fight their friends and family to just get shafted by this country down the line.

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Anonymous ellie 17w

you think if socioeconomic inequality were gone there’d be no more oppression? gurl bye why would you think old ass white men would have an accurate grasp over this shit especially when black authors have specifically critiques these theories for these exact reason. it’s dismissive of how deeply entrenched racism is in our society

1

Anonymous #2 17w

um no... i do however think it's a foundational step in eliminating racism, sexism, and other forms of oppression.

0

Anonymous #2 17w

Sure…but I’ve just always found leftism boring as hell. Honestly right-wing ideology isn’t much more of entertaining either…Call me a lib or neoliberal, but I’ve always preferred actual tangible policy discussions over batshittery and utopia-building.

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Anonymous #5 17w

you choose what ideology you follow based on how entertaining it is? 😭

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Anonymous #5 17w

well you'd know it's not "utopia building" if you read the foundational text socialism utopian and scientific... which u wont do... so bye felicia 👋

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Anonymous #5 17w

like okay privileged ass. glad u find ppls struggles with political and systemic inequality amusing

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Anonymous #2 17w

I’m not someone who needs to deviate from the norm to describe my worldview. For heterodoxy though? Of course. It’s kind of like listening to lore videos to random as hell universes. I mean you’re talking to someone who is more or less tangibly talking about a revolution and how it’s “not as violent as it’s made out to be”.

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Anonymous #5 17w

and you don't even know how much of the world is collectivist and yet still claim we're an individual species. it's like talking to a dumber than average 8th grader who just bases their ideology on edgy meme culture

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Anonymous ellie 17w

It is. I find the need to “eat the rich” as silly and ridiculous as someone believing that trans people are trying to groom kids. As I said before, I’d rather discuss real tangible policy, not who we think belongs in the vanguard and who belongs in the mines.

1

Anonymous #5 17w

ya that’s another problem with this theory is it only works if there’s a revolution? and who knows how long that would take to start so is there just gonna be no progress for ages and ages until that happens?

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Anonymous ellie 17w

I mean you said you were leaving 45 minutes ago. If it’s taken you that long to realize I’m an idiot and yet you’ve still been trying to have a conversation, that would make two of us.

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Anonymous #2 17w

i mean yes. it does assume there will be a revolution at some nebulous time. that's one of my issues with the theory as well.

1

Anonymous #5 17w

i realized u were an idiot a while ago. i just love bitching at people however

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Anonymous #2 17w

Crazy how we have all these lefties calling for a revolution yet none of them are stepping up, right? The vanguard needing “class consciousness”, which is just code for the poor working class to rise up so they have their cannon fodder and meat shields. The far right does the exact same thing.

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Anonymous #5 17w

i mean not really. u gotta have people onboard for a revolution to happen which is what we're trying to accomplish by educating people about theory lol

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Anonymous #5 17w

well i’m a leftist and i get the idea of wanting revolution i just think it’s not realistic. there wouldn’t be enough people to care enough to revolt to overtake the U.S. government and it’d be impossible to organize because everyone would want something different out of the revolution

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Anonymous ellie 17w

🥱

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Anonymous #2 17w

which is one of the main issues with uniting leftists. getting us to agree on anything—as the running joke goes.

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Anonymous ellie 17w

bro why do you think people would gaf about theory they gaf about how they’re gonna pay their next bills or feed themselves or get someone to watch their kids etc etc and revolutions are a lil bit disruptive to all that i fear

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Anonymous #2 17w

i mean not everyone needs to gaf about theory. that's the point in having a vanguard who do so that they can organize everyone when shit kicks off.

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Anonymous #2 17w

Sacrifice. That’s how. That’s the demand revolutionaries assert.

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Anonymous #2 17w

it would be nice if everyone learned theory. and i think if u have the time looking into it is something u should do, but im well aware thats not realistic 😭

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Anonymous ellie 17w

huh so you agree it’s not realistic and that it’s impossible to organize smth like this because people disagree too much? then that’s up

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Anonymous #5 17w

as compared to what. toiling ur life away under the current system so ur kids don't starve 😭

1

Anonymous ellie 17w

so instead you want them to risk their kids safety by revolting?

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Anonymous #2 17w

i mean yeah. not everyone is gonna agree on everything or take the time to learn the theory. which is why the vanguard exists. we're just trying to build a vanguard rn.

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Anonymous #2 17w

i mean revolution is kind of a last resort when shit starts collapsing i'd imagine

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Anonymous ellie 17w

which like honestly isn't that far away with how we're going to

1

Anonymous ellie 17w

I honestly don’t even need to do anything anymore. You damn yourself with your own words.

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Anonymous ellie 17w

going* ignore the to. fuckass auto correct

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Anonymous #2 17w

“Fuck dem kids”

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Anonymous #5 17w

okay says the neolib who chooses ideologies based on which is the silliest meme. if u think im taking anything u say srsly anymore ur tripping 😂

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Anonymous #5 17w

i guess so damn

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Anonymous ellie 17w

Easy there, comrade. I don’t want you to break your champagne glass while lecturing the coal miners.

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Anonymous #2 17w

like all this seems to require sooo much specific things to go right to work it does seem like a kinda flimsy idea with little practical implications

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Anonymous #2 17w

i mean if u gotta choose between revolution and ur kids starving because everything is too fucking expensive then ur prolly gonna choose revolution... as for rn it's best to help ur communities where u can at a local level. praxis doesn't have to be big to make a difference

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Anonymous #2 17w

that's just ideologies in general. they require certain cards to fall a specific way to come into implementation

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Anonymous ellie 17w

okay so you agree it’s not a practical ideology?? so what’s going on 😭

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Anonymous #2 17w

um no. i agree that specific events have to happen for it to be implemented. we're already checking a bunch of the boxes.

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Anonymous ellie 17w

even if all of them are checked there’s definitely a low probability it’s pulled off and it’d be disingenuous to deny that at best and delusional at worst

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Anonymous #2 17w

The first step to revolution…helping your community…you know, like what every normal person does regardless of political ideology….This is what I’ve been kind of trying to drive at. They think they’re going to reinvent the wheel or something if they get rid of private property or kill rich people. Like bro 😂 people just want healthcare and a little more in cushion in their bank account.

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Anonymous #5 17w

i’m sayin like the U.S. has to get to a point so far removed from where we are for people to be desperate enough to actually revolt

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Anonymous #2 17w

i mean that's what i'm most worried about because failed revolutions historically end in fascism. which is why we're trying to make sure that doesn't happen by building a vanguard who is knowledgeable and can guide the revolution. we don't really need to worry about the petty bourgeois which is a W and nobody rlly likes the bourgeoisie because they've gone mask off which is another W. i'd say chances are okay

0

Anonymous #2 17w

i mean its really not that far removed from this point. more and more people r becoming disillusioned with this shit every day

0

Anonymous #2 17w

Depends if people don’t like their fascism. MAGA kind of having the time of their lives rn.

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Anonymous #5 17w

i mean he has a more than 50% disapproval rating which is pretty piss poor. and soon he'll undermine a large amount of his supporters by absolutely fucking medicare

1

Anonymous #2 16w

you mean like capitalism

3

Anonymous #8 16w

huh

1

Anonymous ellie 16w

hating the president doesn’t necessitate revolution i fear. the U.S. has hated lots of our presidents and we don’t revolt over it

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Anonymous #2 16w

Let’s not forget…presidents are voted in. It’s the hard truth that a lot of us don’t like to face.

1