Jewish on Sidechat | People really claim that zionism has no historical tie to religious Judaism as if it wasn’t the reform movement that intentionally and explicitly removed references to it from their prayerbooks in the 19th century

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Jewish 5w

People really claim that zionism has no historical tie to religious Judaism as if it wasn’t the reform movement that intentionally and explicitly removed references to it from their prayerbooks in the 19th century

Anonymous 5w

That’s funny cuz I’m reform grew up in a reform synagogue and we don’t even hide the fact the two are connected. Heck we even have a trip to Israel every few years.

Anonymous 4w

Bro, even chabad, who don't even technically recognize israel for religious reasons, are zionists, and explicitly teach zionism

Anonymous 4w

i grew up reform and it was for sure in the prayerbooks and we used like a really mainstream reform siddur

Anonymous 5w

Rabbi Teitelbaum would care to disagree, as would every pre-Haskalah rabbi with regards to intention and understanding of that

-2

Anonymous

#1 5w

That’s the opinion of one Hasidic rebbe nearly 100 years after the events I’m referring toto, and not even a well reasoned one

Anonymous

#2 5w

some reformed synagogues have changed their viewpoint for sure but it doesn’t mean EVERY reform synagogue is zionist.

Anonymous

#3 5w

Mine is but also lets you come to your own conclusions so it’s weird

Anonymous

#3 5w

I mean the name of mine has Israel in its name so it’d be sad if we didn’t

Anonymous

#2 5w

i think more often than not, many of them now do. i’ve never been in the reform community so i don’t know a whole lot about it, other than what my mom who teaches as a jewish day school with reform and conservative members has shared with me.

Anonymous

#2 5w

That’s a relatively new development. I’m referencing founding documents like the Pittsburgh Platform

Anonymous

OP 5w

That misunderstands both history and theology. The question is not what a later Rebbe thought “a hundred years later,” but what Judaism itself taught before political Zionism existed. For nearly two millennia, normative Judaism understood exile as divinely ordained and redemption as something that comes only through G-d, not through secular nationalism, diplomacy, or force

-3

Anonymous

OP 5w

The Reform movement didn’t “remove Zion” bc it rejected Judaism. It removed it because it correctly recognized that Judaism is not a nationalist project. Ironically, political Zionism later adopted Jewish symbols while rejecting the Jewish belief system that gave them meaning. Pre-Haskalah rabbis did not understand Zion as a mandate for state-building. They understood it as a messianic hope contingent on repentance and divine intervention

-3

Anonymous

OP 5w

To retroactively read 19th–20th century nationalism into classical Jewish texts is anachronistic. Zionism did not grow out of Judaism; it grew out of European nationalism, and then selectively borrowed religious language to legitimize itself. That is precisely why many of the greatest Torah authorities of the time opposed it (not bc they were confused or late, but bc they understood Judaism better than its modern political interpreters)

-2

Anonymous

#1 5w

Making aliyah has consistently been allowed by halacha, so much that Ramban counts it among the 613. The three oaths idea, which is what you are getting at, is a non-halachic talmudic opinion. Not knowing halacha and misunderstanding Jewish history does not make you correct

Anonymous

OP 4w

as a pittsburgher, i will say the reform movement seems to be more pro-israel now than when the pittsburgh conference of 1885 happened.