Anonymous #1 2w

But if a random Jewish person has that same opinion all of a sudden they are a Nazi. You can’t make this up

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Anonymous #2 2w

War is over 🥹

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Anonymous #1 2w

A two state solution is not Zionism lmao

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Anonymous #13 2w

It quite literally is

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Anonymous #13 2w

It literally is you just don’t know what the word means

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Anonymous #1 2w

hi our whole thread got deleted, just wanted to say that you gave me good perspective and i appreciate it

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Anonymous #10 2w

it is weird how literally everything is getting deleted from this post though

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Anonymous #10 2w

You’re welcome! I honestly think this sub should be more open to non Jews who are actually here to learn and listen to us even if they don’t agree with the majority opinion. Unfortunately the people who are just here to troll and bait us make that hard

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Anonymous #14 2w

I think word meanings can change over time and the definition being "the pursuit of an independent Jewish state" is not necessarily the same as a two state solution. Right wing zionists would want to occupy Judea and Samaria, which would mean that a two state solution is impossible while liberal zionists believe there can be a two state solution but I think that also means that a one state must explicitly be a Jewish state, where I don't think everyone who believes in a two state solution thinks

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Anonymous #13 2w

It needs to be an explicitly Jewish state and and explicitly Palestinian state

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Anonymous #13 2w

Two state solution generally implies a Jewish and Palestinian state, two nations for two peoples. What does a Jewish state actually mean though? There are lots of states with state religions and that can mean a lot of different things

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Anonymous #1 2w

I mean I suppose I'm just opposed to the idea of a state for a specific group of people, which yes would put me in the non-Zionist category. However, I think Zionism is specifically associated with a one-state solution now since the Israeli government has said many times that they want to eradicate the Palestinian people, which they justify by invoking Zionism and Judaism.

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Anonymous #13 2w

Setting aside what I personally think (which puts me somewhere between non Zionist and Zionist because these labels are tricky), for American Jews the vast majority of people who call themselves Zionists are two staters. I literally haven’t met a Jewish person who is against a Palestinian state being established in my community

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Anonymous #1 2w

Not to say they don’t exist (they ofc do) but especially in younger crowds (like under 60) they are very much on the fringe

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Anonymous #1 2w

That's all I was trying to say, though. I don't think that Zionism specifically means a two state solution I think it means the pursuit of an independent Jewish state and that has subjective solution. Sorry wasn't trying to be hostile I just thought it wasn't fully correct what you said. Also, anecdotes aren't facts for a reason and therefore shouldn't be used to make objective arguments.

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Anonymous #13 2w

For hard numbers, I just looked up a poll from 2022 (most recent I could find with a quick google that asked this question). 61% of American Jews supported a 2 state solution, 15% a single democratic state, and 24% annexation.

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Anonymous #1 2w

Yes and I think that's fair, however if you asked non-Jews, I'd argue those people would say a two-state solution isn't Zionist because the current government invokes Zionism and Judaism while actively preventing a two state solution from being possible.

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Anonymous #1 2w

I suspect that people have gotten more critical of Israel since then

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Anonymous #1 2w

I'm not disagreeing with you. I just feel like the majority of people would disagree with the idea that a two-state solution is Zionist since current self-proclaimed Zionists are trying to eradicate Palestine

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Anonymous #13 2w

They invoke all kinds of things to suit their agenda. But to many Jews, just like they don’t get to define Judaism, they don’t get to define what Zionism means. Other Jews have just stopped using the word Zionism for that reason tho

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Anonymous #13 2w

You’re probably right. My whole point is the word Zionist means something different to Jews than to non Jews. There are good reasons for that but that is just the reality right now

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Anonymous #1 2w

Damn did we just find common ground in the big 26

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Anonymous #13 2w

I think this is what happens when people actually try to listen and not score internet points by insulting each other 🤷‍♂️

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Anonymous #1 2w

To be fair we both seem to be pretty educated and articulate, I'd argue that isn't very normal lol

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Anonymous #13 2w

Sigh not to get too full of ourselves but you’re probably right

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Anonymous #1 2w

My king it's ok to be educated. Need to spread intellectualism again. Mfs in this day and age love to revel in mediocrity. Be proud that you don't, and encourage others to do the same.

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