Anonymous #2 3w

It’s never been a good faith argument and it’s time we start accepting that. The people who want to hate us will always find reasons to

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Anonymous #4 3w

Either way people act like it’s the most hateful thing in the world

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Anonymous OP 3w

I think most of those people do not have the nuance and historical context here to see much distinction between Zionism and Kahanism aside from degrees of support for the same thing

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Anonymous #3 3w

You say this while responding to the a terrible bad faith representation of people who disagree with Zionism. Not only are anti Zionists not necessarily making a claim of national sovereignty(many of them would agree with it but that’s not what anti Zionism means) but it doesn’t matter if you define Zionism as just having a country when the fact is the creator of Zionism defined it as a colonial project and the actual result of Zionism is genocide

2

Anonymous #4 3w

How do you expect people to react when that kind of ideology runs the Israeli gov and leads to a genocide?

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Anonymous #5 3w

i wasn’t talking about people who disagree with Zionism or anti-Zionists, i was talking specifically about people who think Zionists are equal to white supremacists. i think there are plenty of valid reasons to critique or disagree with Zionism

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Anonymous #6 3w

You do know Zionism just means believing in the right for Jews to exist in Israel which was made for Jews to have a safe place right?

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Anonymous #6 3w

oh ya remember when Zionism enslaved an entire race of people for hundreds of years and established a system of white supremacy that was so powerful and longlasting that it defines where we live and who we know to this day

0

Anonymous #2 3w

(that’s sarcasm by the way not a conspiracy theory)

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Anonymous OP 3w

No it’s not about the right for Jews to exist but a right to a nation state. No one is entitled to a ethno nation state. & it can’t be a safe place if it’s made at the expense of a local population

0

Anonymous #2 3w

Zionism is another form of structural racism involving violence

0

Anonymous #6 3w

What makes the Jewish plight for self determination any more racist/violent than any other indigenous plight for self determination?

3

Anonymous #6 3w

do you genuinely think its “almost worse” than ideologies that have created the Transatlantic slave trade, millennia of institutionalized sexual violence against women, or extremely high rates of murder and suicide in lgbtq teens around the world

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Anonymous #2 3w

I’m glad I couldn’t tell if you were serious or not

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Anonymous OP 3w

i know i realized after i wrote it that it unfortunately wasn’t clear lol

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Anonymous #2 3w

That’s just not what you said though lmao. You gave 2 quotes laying out supposed sides of a discussion where someone says Zionist as a negative term. All you have for these fake perspectives is opposing movements in support of a specific nation and claim that as their logical reasoning for that. The reality is people use Zionist as a negative term because of what Zionism is and its outcomes regardless of supporting of any national movements. Nice back tracking tho lmao

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Anonymous #2 3w

Buddy what’s happening in Palestine right now is literally not far off. It is just a modern form. If this continued for 400 years which it’s on track to right now it’d be an extremely apt comparison but people would obviously prefer to end things before it reaches that point.

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Anonymous #5 3w

Zionism is a national movement and most people oppose it because of the suffering it caused Palestinians who also have a national movement in the same land

1

Anonymous #3 3w

The Jewish plight for self determination isn’t more racist or more violent. Zionism the colonial project to create Israel specifically is extremely violent. It is different because instead of violence towards an oppressor or a group that caused the problem(like native Americans fighting the US) it’s like the natives Americans going somewhere else and doing exactly what was done to them to an unrelated group

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Anonymous #2 3w

Yeah genocide is pretty on par with all that stuff

2

Anonymous #5 3w

What’s happening is awful but don’t minimize other forms of bigotry when you’re talking about it. These are centuries- or millennia-old global systems, not a modern regional conflict over a specific piece of land

0

Anonymous #5 3w

And the Palestinian plight for self determination isn’t the exact same thing because….?

0

Anonymous #2 3w

And yet the Palestinians being a national movement doesn’t have any impact on the logic required to disagree with genocide.

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Anonymous #2 3w

Guess the Holocaust as an isolated event isn’t bad. Guess what’s happening to Uyghurs and people in Sudan isn’t as bad then. Idk why you’re comparing but to say they’re in the same realm is pretty fair

1

Anonymous #5 3w

Their national movement is built on the same exact principles as Zionism except for the minor addition of no Jews

3

Anonymous #5 3w

Okay I give up I hope you figure it out one day

0

Anonymous #3 3w

Because Zionism has directly colonized them and Palestinians have not gone and committed a genocide on anybody.

2

Anonymous #5 3w

Because they tried. And failed lol. Your only argument is that one side won the war that could’ve been avoided by simply not declaring war

0

Anonymous #2 3w

You can literally admit some criticism of Israel is bad and you’ll sit by and watch our people who have been victimized for thousands of years do the same to others and say because it hasn’t gone on as long it’s not so bad. I used to be proud of my culture lmao every time I engage with more people like you it just makes me so sad. How can we not see what’s happening. What happened to never forget? That only applies to us?

2

Anonymous #3 3w

Wtf are you even talking about? When did Palestinians try to colonize somebody else? 1948 and everything since is literally resistance to a colonial movement

2

Anonymous #5 3w

So you feel Jews are an exception from every other group in the work to try and achieve self determination. That’s all you had to say. You’re gonna talk to a wall so long as you refuse to understand the concept that the Zionist movement in 1948 was a self determination movement recognized by the UN, not a colonialist project. The only credit I’ll give the Palestinian nationalist movement for their mistake in 1948 is that they didn’t actually have a national identity until ‘67

1

Anonymous #5 3w

You are misunderstanding me, I don’t sit by and watch anything. I take action for what I believe in and what I believe is what Israel is doing to Palestinians is wrong. However I don’t believe that makes the entire existence of Israel wrong. I try to use whatever connection or influence I have as a Jewish person (which is really not much) to change Israel for the better, not destroy it

1

Anonymous #2 3w

And I am not saying some people’s suffering is not “as bad” as others that’s ridiculous. I’m sorry you feel disillusioned about Jewish culture but I think if you give people a chance you might find out that most people are closer in opinion to you than you think

1

Anonymous #2 3w

And finally, my point had nothing to do with how long things have been going on for or to say anything that is happening to Palestinians somehow is okay. I’m sorry that it came across that way, that wasn’t what I meant

1

Anonymous #5 3w

I think where we disagree is that I don’t think Zionism is synonymous with genocide. I think it is perfectly possible to believe in an ideal and also disagree with things that are done in its name

1

Anonymous OP 3w

Yeah your screenshot definition is exactly what I said? It’s about a Jewish ethno state? When you said it’s about Jews right to exist there? Two totally different things

2

Anonymous #6 3w

That doesn’t say it’s an ethno state it says it’s a Jewish nation aka a place for Jewish people to live and exist, that doesn’t say everyone else should be killed

0

Anonymous OP 3w

A Jewish nation state is an ethno state wdym 😭😭 a state where your rights are determined by ethnicity?

11

Anonymous #6 3w

Cause no other country’s have ethnicity determine your rights…

0

Anonymous OP 3w

There are other ethnostates, yes

6

Anonymous #3 3w

Nope wrong again. Theodore’s Herzl the “father of Zionism” called it colonial movement. Ethnostates and genocides are bad in case you were unaware

0

Anonymous #5 3w

The word “colonial” and “colonize” had different meanings in the 1800s!! It was a movement to encourage people to move and legally purchase land, which they did. We have words today that mean something different than they did 5 years ago, and you think 150 years doesn’t?

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Anonymous #5 3w

Your screenshot just reiterates that he used the word in late 1800s/early 1900s where it literally had a different connotation than today. And literally yes, land was legally purchased from Palestinians living there. That is a fact. There’s a whole Wikipedia page if you wanna do some reading https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_land_purchase_in_Palestine

1

Anonymous #3 3w

Colonization only had a different connotation in Europe becauss Europe was still in the midst of the colonial era, it wasn’t referring to a different process or set of actions than it refers to today, that process was just viewed differently in Europe at that time And the colonization of the Americas started often with “land purchases” too, land purchases in societies where most people did not have notions of land ownership that forcefully depopulated entire villages with the help of the army

5

Anonymous #4 3w

Brother, this was the mid 1900s, they had notions of land ownership. The ottomans made laws to prevent SPECIFICALLY Jews from buying land, then so did the British. Only the Jews. Wikipedia is a really shitty source but I’d recommend you use it as a start because you still went from denying it happened to so adamantly exposing it real quick

0

Anonymous #3 3w

First off I didn’t go from one position to another, I am a different person than the one you replied to previously and I have a different position than theirs which had been consistent since I read the historical literature on this subject The mid 1900s was when Israel was established, not when most of these land purchases were happening. Prior to 1858, there was no foreign land ownership in the Ottoman Empire for anyone, be they Jewish or otherwise…

7

Anonymous #4 3w

…most Palestinians peasants who worked and lived on these lands were illiterate, and did not understand these new laws and notions of land ownership, which is why I said “most people,” since that was most of these people in the region Even in the region writ large amongst private landlords though, notions of land ownership did not include a right to expel the peasantry from the land they worked let alone depopulate entire villages to do so, which is what was done once the land was purchased

6

Anonymous #3 3w

The Ottoman laws to stop Jews from buying land was a response to this crisis of villages being depopulated and the backlash, as well as fear of Jewish separatism, I agree however that the implementation under those lines was an unjust one, but so were the land purchases those laws were put in place to prevent (and the Ottoman Land Code of 1858 itself, but that’s a whole other story)

7

Anonymous #3 3w

The big difference is that Zionism was a movement started by people not living in the land they wished to build a nation-state in, where the ethnic group by which it wanted said nation-state to be governed was a minority, and required a process of colonization and dispossession

5

Anonymous #2 3w

I agree that genocide is not necessary for Zionism, but I’d argue ethnic cleansing is, which is still a deep injustice

5

What

1