
everyone on this post is loud and wrong. racism and christ don't mix, homophobia and christ DO NOT mix. yes homosexuality is an abomination in the bible but so are many other things, the bible does not say that you are kept from the kingdom of heaven if you're homosexual; the only unrepeatable sin is blasphemy. You are not God, stop putting false beliefs into the world and bringing down the church and other respectful christians.
Youâre translating the words but ignoring the legal system they sit inside. Exodus 21:5â6 doesnât prove ownership , it proves the opposite. The servant goes to a judge specifically so the master cannot force him to stay. That alone shows this isnât chattel slavery. No slave in an ownership-based system ever went to court to voluntarily stay or to protect their rights.
Idk Iâm getting blanket statemented about somehow being gay because I donât believe in god or allah or any of that so I guess everyone is in the mood for generalizations today. However just to clarify again, if you traveled to a Muslim controlled country they would simply kill you. And seeing as youâre responding, that hasnât happened in the Christian controlled country.
ur actually delusional you donât have proof that your god is real and u canât make people believe in it just cuz u do donât push it on others?? is love really that scary to you i cannot comprehend how you are scared of two people wholeheartedly loving each other what makes u think u have any right to say anything about them at least try to preach what u believe that is not what christianity is
You phrase that in negative light? Being killed for no reason, right? Can you not see how people could possibly have empathy for ALL people being killed for no reason? The average at war muslim is not standing on a soapbox preaching homophobic rhetoric, they are just humans trying to survive.
Actually, thatâs the whole premise of Christianity. What Jesus started during his earthly ministry didnât end when he ascended to heaven. Through the power of the Holy Spirit, that same mission has now been passed onto all believers. So yes, through Jesus death on the cross I now will preach that TRUE love is found in Jesus sacrifice. They can âloveâ each other all they want, but in Godâs eyes itâs sin and not what he truly has in store for his creation
Yes I do believe that if a rapist or pedophile truly has a change of heart and commits their life to him, then I will one day rejoice with them in heaven in the presence of God. Itâs just like the thief of the cross next to Jesus. He repents and has a true life changing experience with him, and Jesus says to him âtruly you will be with me today in paradiseâ Thatâs the beauty of the Gospel is that we are never too far gone for the love of Christ to change our lives
I do not know. And that right there is why iâm not God, and neither are you. There is a âmystery of the gospelâ that we canât understand because God is so much greater than we are. I donât know why he forgives them, but Iâm glad he does because I believe every person deserves to hear and have the opportunity to receive the beauty of the gospel
And that right there is the difference between true Christianity and cultural Christianity. True Christianity allows us to live in the freedom that Christ has given us. Being a good human being just because thatâs what Jesus did. Cultural Christianity was a lie and deception from Satan to cause a divide to bring bad light to Christianity
Okay so people in the US donât get killed bc theyâre gay, we literally have pride month. In muslim counties they do. Women also arenât allowed to get an education or go outside without their husbands consent. Women cannot vote. Women have to wear clothing so that men wonât think inappropriate thoughts when he looks at her. Husbands can have up to 4 wives and wives can only have one husband. This is not âhateâ these are actual facts. I wouldnât defend a religion that is so cruel even to this day.
Okay God did not endorse slavery. Just because itâs in the bible doesnât mean that it is has to be followed. The bible tells the story of Godâs people and enslavement was part of that story. God never tells anyone to own slaves. Slavery, just like any other sin results from the absence of good in our world. And yes I do think God is moral.
So when you read the bible you have to think of the time period they were in. Back then a lot of people were enslaved due to unpaid debts. Instead of living in debt these people get to live on his land and work for the âmasterâ as they slowly pay off their debt. This saves his family from a life of torture. I know the verse seems harsh when taken out of context. Also this was in the new testament. After Jesusâ coming these ways were corrected.
Going from âwe donât know where we came from and we definitely didnât just appearâ to âitâs definitely an all knowing godâ is a huge presupposition. And nowhere in science does it say we appeared out of nowhere. Evolution is a thing. But god blipping us into existence IS in fact us appearing out of nowhere. So thereâs that. đ¤Łđ¤Ł
I never said we donât know where we came from. I never said it was an all knowing God. I never said God blipped us into existence. Donât put words in my mouth. I said it makes sense that we have a creator. I believe in evolution, but not from apes. I believe humans evolve. I also believe that there has to be a creator. No way we were designed so perfectly by chance. If you donât believe thereâs a creator how do you think we got here? If we evolved from apes why are apes still here.
Just because itâs in the bible doesnât mean itâs law. Thatâs the second time Iâve said that. Jesus said he is a vine. Do you think the Son of God came to Earth as a vine? No. He was human. If youâre going to make stupid points so will I. This is history weâre talking about. Just because it happened doesnât mean itâs right. When Jesus came these ways were changed. God brought his people out of slavery. If he was so pre slavery why would he do that??
God would never say that. Ever. If youâre making this argument you obviously donât understand God. But if God said something is moral then so be his will. God told Abraham to kill his son and because he almost did so, God granted him offspring and said all the nations of the earth will be blessed because of his sacrifice
That verse is describing how people were to take slaves instead of allowing people to be sold into slavery. They took them so they wouldnât have to live in poverty. They were to be treated as hired workers and released in the year of Jubilee. The text prohibits the owners from treating them ruthlessly.
Iâm talking about the amleeks and also the bears. Gamora. Also the children had nothing to do with anything. It was the Pharoh. Also the flood was to get rid of corruption yet itâs still here. He killed kids for literally no reason and the crazy thing is he knew it would be for no reason.
okay so we donât know how corrupt they were. Also weâre humans, weâre not perfect, weâre always going to be a bit corrupt. Give or take. Also I have never heard of the allenâs, what verse is that? Also Gomorrah, along with Sodom was destroyed due to corruption. Again we donât know how corrupt they were. It couldâve been worse than anything we can imagine.
Read my other comments and youâll see what I meant. Yes owning people without their consent is bad. The slavery in the old testament is bondservant. Most of these servants asked to be servants so they didnât have to live in poverty. No I donât believe in the quran. I was just wondering if you believed that the quran teaches the things I mentioned. And there are millions of other people that would defend the bible as well, by the way. Please go home to Jesus.
If they were to live with a so called âmasterâ than in poverty, honestly that might be better. The parents of those kids were bondservants so they were working for their debt. Itâs not all about the kids. Do you think itâs worse to kill kids without their consent or own them without their consent?
Listen, this was written 2,000 years ago. This was a completely different time. Jesus has come since then. To try and relate then to today is insane. Today it is bad to own people without their consent, obviously. But it was a different time. Yes, these people were born into bondservanthood, but they were saved from a life of poverty, which couldâve resulted in death. Everything God says is true word. He ultimately knows more than we do. He knew what needed to happen back then for the future.
You can try to justify it but multiple things can be immoral at once. Itâs a false dichotomy and dishonest to pretend otherwise. You can pretend itâs BETTER to force someone to live as a slave because their parents agreed to work for a few years, but in reality itâs still bad. I can shoot someone or stab them violently. Neither are good, one is worse. But neither are GOOD. And this is coming from a God you pretend is ALL good.
Do you like not read my other comments?? I just discussed this. This happened years ago!! Different times!! Today it would be frowned upon but it mightâve been necessary for the advancement of humans at the time. We donât know. Thatâs the whole point. Faith. We have faith in our God. He is omniscient and omnipresent. He is all knowing. But once again these people were servants due to debt! The bible condemns slavery that we are used to. This is more like sharecropping than anything.
Um I do believe He is presented as all good, and so does the bible youâre referencing from. God is the most moral being, but he is also just. Most would agree that wiping out the earth with a flood was immoral, but he did it anyway. It was for the betterment of our world. Iâm saying whatever God does there is a reason behind it. No action is insignificant. He has a will and itâs important that we follow it. We wouldnât take slaves of another land today, he told men who lived forever ago to do so
the punishment of being in debt was indentured servitude. there must be a punishment for debt, just like today your car will be repoâd if you miss a payment. if you had no assets back then the only option for most people was servanthood to pay debts. the bible expressly forbids forcing people into slavery. you would know this if you knew the context of the verses. all youâre doing is pulling verses out of context like a new reddit atheist. all of your points have been disproven by many scholars.
So it becomes moral ? Because it happened years ago? You already said it was bad lol. Youâre dismissing immoral commands and actions because it didnât happen in your lifetime? The children did not consent to anything. Youâre switching up. Becoming pro slavery just for the sake of defending an idea you canât concede doesnât align with what your God said lol.
I think owning someone as property, removing their ability to be seen as a human being, forcing them to exist as your property for the sole purpose of free labor you simply donât want to do is worse than getting killed and being released from a prison of a life. Now answer mine.
when did I run away? I answered all the questions. Iâm tired of answering to people who wonât listen and arenât open to new ideas. If youâre going to ask people stupid questions and expect actual answers I think your life will be full of misery. Youâre taking g verses completely out of context. Please educate yourself on the time period and the ways that things worked back then. You are the problem here. Seek help.
You canât even run away right. âI answered all of your questions except for the three I just ignored because you pointed out how hypocritical I was being!â If youâre going to run away, then at least stop being a liar and stay gone. If youâre going to come back just to cry and complain. Do it productively, and answer.
Neither Jesus nor God owned slaves. The bible actually has laws around slavery that were not "cruel" necessarily as modern times. The bible didn't invent or necessarily uphold slavery it just mentioned it because it was a thing it ancient times. Jesus even did things that slaves did, he taught others the opposite and slaves could not be returned to cruel masters or kept longer than 6 years, it was more like debt repayment than what MODERN slavery is. God meets humanity where it already is.
Slaves also could not be "taken" or kidnapped how they were in modern times, the person who did so would be put to death. Slaves were mostly people who gave their "debt" back in time or work because they had nothing to give. The bible also doesn't say it's a "good thing" it simply already existed.
What verses? There are plenty that say to treat the slaves fairly and just, they could not capture and kidnap people. The people worked for them, and they weren't sold as in today's manner. There were REGULATIONS because these things already existed. And actually it was a main thing not to tear apart families as well.
It is incorrect, we are on the same page. What you're wrong about is that the "slavery" was not MODERN. Nowhere did they steal or kidnap these people, the people agreed to work for them because they could not repay them in another way, they had to be freed after 6 years, could not be severely punished or beaten, and they could not be sold how we think of today for money, their work could be transferred to someoneelse. "Whoever steals a man and sells him⌠shall be put to death.â â Exodus 21:16.
Okay so you agree itâs bad. Exodus 21:4 states that children born of slaves are property of the slave owner. The children donât consent to being owned as property by the slave owner. The parents consenting to being bond servants/slaves doesnât mean the child gets the option. And God is telling people that itâs okay to own kids as property from the moment theyâre born if theyâre born to a slave you already own
You're also confusing the people with god. God cannot control humans. There were laws set in place that banned them from beating them, selling them, or keeping them/killing them, they had to be set free. God also never ever said it was moral, he knew it existed, so he called for fair treatment and to treat them as your own family.
And the best part about you admitting itâs bad, is it doesnât matter how theyâre treated (though in later verses God says you can beat your slave as long as they recover within 2 days) Because you already acknowledge the base idea of endorsing owning people as property without those peopleâs consent, is a bad immoral thing.
He didn't tell them to do it at all, he basically said if you're going to do it, you have to have these rules, they weren't treated unjust and you're also forgetting the people were not forced into this. They agreed. If i agreed to work for someone and they gave me a home, food, etc. Basically treated you as a household member, they are being treated regularly, no i don't see that as an issue.
Thatâs actually exactly what he did lol. Quote Exodus 21:4 for me. The children born to slaves quite literally are forced into this. I already said this and you probably just didnât read what I said but the ADULTS consenting to a dynamic, doesnât mean the CHILDREN BORN TO THE SLAVES, consent to being owned as property.
What you're saying is also wrong. If the baby is born to a mother that is also bound to that household, the baby stays with the mother, That would rarely happen, The person in slavery would have to have went in alone (that's a rule). The mother would be freed after 6 years regardless, but there would be a very slim chance there would be 2 people of the opposite gender working for the same person to even have this baby.
You didnât quote the verse. The verse states the baby is property of the slave OWNER. Oh okay I get it so itâs okay to endorse owning kids as property from birth because it was rare that it happened. Who cares if they still had to experience chattel slavery, because it didnât really happen to anyone else!!
âIf his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the wife and her children shall be her masterâs, and he shall go out alone.â Keep in mind ancient text, given does not mean a free woman, this literally means if their both in the same household as slaves, which would rarely happen, and this is simply a rule because the woman's contract probably is not over, once it is they will both be released in 6 years, i don't agree with you.
Slavery already existed and God upheld rules as he could in an ANCIENT time so that they would be treated fairly as possible. There are different time periods and no the Bible is not completely perfect either, no one is saying that but at the end of the day you are wrong. God calls us all to be loving and kind to one another and that's what the religion is about. I think anyone should follow their own religions as they please. Believe what you want.
Once again, this is the truth in the Bible, once again not really modern slavery; nothing is against their will, and most of the time would not have a child as a slave. They are all humans who chose all these things. God didn't control them he put the rules in place to protect them, yes. It was not cruel, i still disagree with you but okayđ
No one is justifying it either, slavery existed back then just as it did now, but it was not anywhere as severe. I am explaining to you that no where does God uphold that though, and there were things put in place to make sure they were not treated cruelly. That's the facts and you're just being ignorantđ
You agree that it was bad to endorse owning people as property without those peopleâs consent, but now youâre saying that itâs OK that he did do that because the people arenât being treated poorly when that was never the issue to begin with. It was the fact that they (the children of slaves) were owned as property without consent
The baby part you are correct about, but like i said, most of the time that would not happen; not saying it's okay but over the other plenty of protections in place, the "enslaved" person would more than likely not even have this baby. The bible isn't perfect but God didn't uphold anything. Once again, God doesn't control humans.
They weren't owned as "property" though necessarily, they agreed to do work to repay another person as i already explained to you. You are just now bringing up the children context and the people MUST be released after 6 years, no where does it say they can't be released before, and they're more than likely not having babies while repaying a debt. You're just being ignorant, and like I said as well, there are a few other places in the bible with gray areas sure, we're still going to follow
I'm not God and neither are you, we don't know "Why" he does anything. The world is not perfect and it does not predict the future. The bible isn't magic either, just because he says something doesn't mean people won't do it. They shouldn't but that isn't how the world works. & Once again there were rules not to rule cruely, the World was not perfect and God knew that. Certain things were kept in place because of human sin; once again slavery already existed. Leviticus is also way past Exodous
The bible is not just a set of rules, it's also a story, things took place after Exodus that would be worse, humans didn't listen to Jesus at first. That's why those things are said in Leviticus, also, once again not morally correct, but God didn't "uphold this" he also always called not to rule cruelly, he can't control what they will still do. i'm done arguing with you.
The âPropertyâ youâre thinking of is different from the Hebrew term they used of property back then. The Bible uses the word âpropertyâ because in Hebrew law it meant household responsibility, not object ownership. Anyone can pick a single verse in the Bible and try and twist it but if you do the research it always ends up true.
Exodus refers to them as âpropertyâ (keceph). Literally, this Hebrew word means âsilverâ or âmoney.â The same usage/terms are used in reference to livestock, land, tools, etc. Quite literally they are property as object ownership. This is also affirmed by the later verses where God permits the beating of slaves as long as they recover because theyâre âpropertyâ and the fact that you can sell them to others.
See exactly, The word âpropertyâ in Exodus refers to legal responsibility, not ownership of a human being. Just like today parents legally control a childâs residence, food, school, and medical decisions, in ancient Israel the children were considered part of the household under the fatherâs authority, not objects. Itâs not about owning kids; itâs about who is responsible for them. I tried explaining this but you just donât wanna see a different perspective.
Iâm going to explain it one more time. Their legal status is derivative of the masterâs ownership. The male slaveâs temporary release after six years (Exod 21:2) contrasts with the permanent retention of the woman and children, reinforcing that they are not autonomous legal subjects but assets remaining with the household. ×Ö´Öź× ×֡ץְפ֟×Öš ××Öź× (ki kaspo hu, âfor he is his moneyâ), an unambiguous equation of the enslaved person with monetary property.
Exodus 21 is describing household authority, not moral value. And the text explicitly protects servants: kidnapping was punishable by death (Ex 21:16), abuse freed the servant (21:26â27), and Hebrew servitude ended after six years (21:2). That is nothing like chattel slavery. Youâre forcing modern categories into an ancient legal system that doesnât work the same way.
Youâre confused. Iâm saying that the children BORN to slaves (referred to in Exodus 21:4) are part of a chattel slavery system. Even IF they are released, they are released as a slave which they never consented to be. The verse states that children born to slaves are property of the slave OWNER. That is chattel slavery. The judge portion, the legality portion, is just proving they are legally considered assets.
Hebrew law required release in the Jubilee (Lev 25) and gave protections, rights, rest days, legal recourse, and freedom from abuse, none of which exist in chattel systems. Chattel slavery is permanent, inheritable, and allows treating humans as objects. Hebrew servitude is conditional, regulated, time-limited, and legally protected. Calling both systems the same because the English translation uses âpropertyâ ignores the actual legal structure.
Treatment isnât being contested here. Although- Exodus 21:20 âAnyone who beats their male or female slave with a rod must be punished if the slave dies as a direct result, 21. BUT they are not to be punished if the slave recovers after a day or two, since the slave is their property.
If all you get from reading the bible is that it endorses slavery, then you are the problem. But God was commanding this to people thousands of years ago. The people already beat their slaves recklessly and a lot of times they were permanently injured. In this verse God is putting a limit on how much you can hurt people rather than endorsing violence. If the slave is permanently injured they are released and if the slave dies then the master is punished.
back then people did beat their slaves all of the time. He would never come to someone in the US today and give the same command because we live in a different time. We donât have any slaves. So if God said that, it would be weird. But people back then did and the slaves were usually always getting beat recklessly. Thatâs why God commanded this, to lessen the beating.
Exodus 21:4 isnât describing chattel slavery. In Israel, slavery wasnât racial or lifelong, most âslavesâ were debt-servants working off what they owed. The children being considered part of the masterâs household is legal language about economic responsibility, not human worth. Also, if the master harmed a servant, the servant was set free (Ex 21:26â27), and kidnapping someone to make them a slave was a death-penalty crime (Ex 21:16). Thatâs the opposite of chattel slavery.
I looked and you never answered if itâs good or bad that God advocated to own kids as property without consent. So thank for lying to my face again. You never said yes or no to the second thing and you never gave me a bible verse that makes endorsing owning kids as property without consent, a moral act. So all lies I guess
Both of you said bye and then came back the second you guys couldnât handle being wrong lmao. Just a funny thing I saw from the two of you by the way One is defending beating people and one is lying about made up verses that excuse slavery Both are defending owning chattel slaves though lmaooo
Maybe Iâm not sure. I went to Catholic school but I am not 100% educated on the bible or the time period. I know God is all knowing and all good. Youâre looking at this from a very limited POV. He knows all. Whatever he said or did I believe there was a reason. I know that God is just as well. Please stop trying do be a discord loser and go watch or read what scholars have to say about this. They will give you much better answers than me.
all Iâm doing is forcing you to confront a logical contradiction. You said that owning people are endorsing owning people as property without those peopleâs consent is a bad thing. Multiple things can be bad at once. Even if God saying this was less bad it is still bad to do and say.
I bet youâre saying this as a conservative who wants to use religion as a excuse to fuel your hatred which is absolutely ridiculous at least ppl on the left like myself have the correct morals to treat everybody with dignity & respect & donât say hateful racist bullshit or homophobic nonsense like oh youâre committing sin & going to hell blah blah for being gay or trans
Well they might be going to hell. Itâs a sin to be gay. And thatâs not just me saying that. Many people, even gay people agree. Marriage was made for a man and a woman. So they could procreate, which is one command that God gives us. Iâm not saying that all gay people will go to hell because God is just and he knows our hearts. He knows who belongs in heaven. At the end of the day though weâre all sinners. Just as long as people focus on correcting their sin instead of living in it, theyâre ok
Im a lesbian & youâre speaking nonsense you do not speak for us MANY if not MOST gay ppl do not believe in religion & if they do (which I do however I currently identify as being agnostic) they r not brainwashed or stupid enough to believe the nonsense ppl like u say also it was never a sin to be gay or act on being gay pedophilia is the real sin & I will always stand by that