Anonymous #2 5w

Trans women also go through female puberty, develop breasts, experience a period (no bleeding but they have the same hormonal/emotional cycle and often have cramps), and can have a “female childhood”. Not all cis women have a uterus, boobs, periods, etc.

31

Anonymous #2 5w

There’s no such thing as a “female childhood” unless you’re counting puberty, and even though trans women can’t menstruate they still experience some of the symptoms associated with it if they’ve medically transitioned

21

Anonymous #2 5w

So what if they don’t know what it’s like to be a cis women, why would that warrant their exclusion? As a cis woman I don’t inherently have the same experiences as you but you don’t see people petitioning for my exclusion either. Cis or trans we can all speak to whatever experiences are relevant to us and be there for each other.

17

Anonymous #3 5w

I don’t really see a need for “afab only” spaces besides just wanting to exclude trans women for something. Like if you just want to talk about bleeding from periods or pregnancy there are already specific discussions for those things in many places

15

Anonymous #2 5w

And what’s it like to be a cis woman?

15

Anonymous #2 5w

Nope! I’m saying trans women can also experience things that are misunderstood to be exclusive to cis women. Not every cis woman goes through things thought to be exclusive to cis women either.

3

Anonymous OP 5w

It’s not the same. I’m not sure I necessarily agree that we need AFAB spaces (doesn’t rlly make sense to me). But the puberty is not the same.

9

Anonymous #3 5w

Yup and you don’t need to put a special sign on the door to keep people out. People can decide if it’s relevant or not to them and choose whether or not to engage.

17

Anonymous #5 5w

Nor is having a “female childhood.” Growing up as a young girl is an odddd experience. I don’t think we need AFAB spaces, bc that’s just exclusionary, but some things are exclusive to AFAB women and that’s okay

16

Anonymous #5 5w

Why does it matter if it’s the same? I highly doubt your puberty was exactly the same as mine.

8

Anonymous OP 5w

Exactly, it’s just common sense

11

Anonymous OP 5w

In day to day? It does not. Not sure why I would be discussing my puberty experience with a rando anyway. I don’t agree with OOP at all. Just pointing out that there are differences between cis women and trans women

10

Anonymous #5 5w

You see my problem is “AFAB” doesn’t actually mean what you think it does. AFAB is assigned female at birth, it also includes women born with hormonal differences and without a uterus. You’re drawing a hard boundary with a term that doesn’t actually mean anything other than that’s how a doctor interpreted your sex when you popped out.

3

Anonymous #5 5w

Never said there’s no difference in experiences at all. I’m saying there is a variety across all women’s experiences so trying to draw hard lines based on assigned sex is usually not productive.

5

Anonymous #2 5w

The fact you view trans women as invaders IS transphobic. You are acting like the victim when trans women are much more vulnerable in our society and then crying out because people are calling your bullshit. You are allowed to talk about your individual experiences, but your use of the word “invaded” is very telling.

18

Anonymous #2 5w

no one is going to call you transphobia for talking about your own girlhood experiences. and your personal girlhood and female experience aren’t even universal to all cis women so that makes no sense. the call is coming from inside the house, i think that might be your conscience speaking.

24

Anonymous #6 5w

The only cis women exclusive spaces I’ve seen are full of people who hate trans women and the reason why is simple, if you tolerate the exclusion of trans women you don’t support them and you will attract TERFs.

15

Anonymous #2 5w

can you explain to me what spaces are being “invaded”? like where are you hanging out at that you’re consistently talking about girlhood, periods, etc? to me that’s a personal thing that i only talk about with my friends

11

Anonymous OP 5w

the crazy thing is though i’ve never even seen a women only space in general (including cis women) for there to even be a conversation about excluding trans women. i’m just confused on what that op is talking about, like is it a book club or a hobby or something that she wants to be cis women only?

28

Anonymous #6 5w

I think she’s just uncomfortable with trans women/doesn’t want to accept gender isn’t as straightforward as she thinks and doesn’t want to accept she’s in the wrong for it. I talk about my body and my experiences with trans women all the time and it’s a complete nonissue.

15

Anonymous #8 5w

Transmisogynistic is an established feminist term to describe the intersection of transphobia and misogyny. It’s not oppression Olympics, it’s intersectional feminism in the same way acknowledging the unique intersection between anti blackness and misogyny has the term misogynoir.

21

Anonymous OP 5w

If you feel threatened by the acknowledgment that trans women face unique vulnerabilities that is a reflection of privilege.

14

Anonymous OP 5w

I pretty much agree with you on everything, just trying to show you the other person’s perspective

5

Anonymous OP 5w

it’s definitely oppression Olympics and the way white women cannot resist dragging black people into their sociology needs to be studied. racism was built off the back of a multi century genocide and a concentration camp based economy please stop using that as a crutch. so damn disrespectful this is why I cannot subscribe to white women’s lens of feminism

9

Anonymous #5 5w

I know her perspective that’s why I’m picking it apart so thoroughly. I don’t need you to play devil’s advocate.

5

Anonymous #8 5w

and exactly what i’m saying

6

Anonymous #2 5w

the constant false parallels are disrespectful and appalling. like it doesn’t matter what the issue is somebody is going to make false equivalencies to a 500 year oppression

-3

Anonymous #8 5w

I’m not equating racism to transphobia, I’m saying the TERM transmisogyny is also based in intersectional feminism like the TERM misogynoir. Nowhere did I say they were the same, I was commenting on the root of the words.

15

Anonymous OP 5w

Transmisogyny is not a term exclusive to white feminists either, by the way. There’s even transmisogynoir used by some theorists to specifically describe the intersections between anti-blackness, misogyny, and transphobia that affects black trans women. This isn’t about “who’s most oppressed,” it’s language for how these different oppressive forces converge.

12

Anonymous OP 5w

exactly. so if black people too can be subject to transphobia it makes even less sense to compare it to racism. misogyny is systemic, racism is systemic, transphobia is not. learn how to make a point without dragging black peoples into it thank yaaaa

-5

Anonymous #8 5w

Transphobia is enforced legally and socially throughout history, how is that not systemic? Again I’m not saying it’s the same as racism and I never said that, but it IS systemic.

14

Anonymous OP 5w

agree to disagree there. stop dragging black people into your “points” end of discussion

-4

Anonymous OP 5w

The United States is currently dismantling protections for transphobic people in the work force, barring their access to medical care, and the courts have historically allowed people to get away with hate crimes against trans people. Trans women are rejected from shelters, have smear campaigns run against them to remove them for their jobs unjustly, are raped by police officers and sent to men’s prisons to be raped by other prisoners. How is that not systemic violence and oppression?

13

Anonymous #10 5w

trans women are women and as such belong in women’s spaces. but ALL women, trans and cis alike, need to be mindful of the spaces they occupy and acknowledge that their feelings are not the only ones that matter.

3

Anonymous #10 5w

If this is a specific problem people are running into w specific women then yes they should talk to them about it but it’s ridiculous to jump to exclusion.

15

Anonymous #10 5w

also, and this is a completely separate point from the original, i feel iffy about “women in stem” (or other heavily male dominated fields) type spaces. specifically if you’re someone who transitioned later in life and spent a lot of time being perceived and treated as a man in those spaces, regardless of whether you actually were one or not, i think maybe you should take a step back when people talk about challenges you personally did not face

16

Anonymous #9 5w

No reason to mark that as AFAB only though. I’m AFAB and those issues have 0 relevancy to me specifically beyond being an ally to those who it concerns.

-1

Anonymous #10 5w

but also i study in a heavily male dominated field where among women, trans women are overrepresented and thats obviously not a bad thing!! but like. often times i’m not the only woman in the room but i am the only person who experienced ap calculus as a girl and that is a different experience and im not saying trans women should be excluded but i think we should be able to talk about that.

8

Anonymous #10 5w

Trans women experience the same exact issues in those spaces and tend to be even more violently treated in them because they are also trans… do you actually listen to what trans women have to say or do you just want them to stop talking? Because every trans woman in stem I’ve spoken to experiences the same issues if not more because of their transition complicating things further.

23

Anonymous OP 5w

i agree it’s not okay to jump to exclusion but it is a pattern with trans women as a whole. obviously not every trans woman does it, but it’s evidently a common problem

0

Anonymous #10 5w

you put this much more kindly than i did. this is basically the point i’m trying to make. trans women are women, but so are cis women. and women only spaces were invented to talk about what it’s like to be a woman, grow up as a girl, etc. trans women, whether anyone else thinks so or not, grew up as boys. perhaps effeminate boys (which is a different convo) but boys nonetheless. they dont. know. what. it’s. like.

1

Anonymous OP 5w

i actually know and listen a lot of trans women, thanks for asking! including those who did not transition until, for example, college. meaning they did not experience the firsthand misogyny associated with being a high school girl in those spaces. so no trans women do not experience the “same exact issues”, they face different issues that are important in their own right and shouldn’t take precedence over other issues.

20

Anonymous #10 5w

I sent that before your follow up, when I said “same exact issues” I meant “presently facing misogyny in the stem field” because that was what I assumed you were talking about, so for that I apologize. I think you should be able to talk about those things and I’m glad you agree exclusion isnt the answer.

2

Anonymous #8 5w

It’s just like how black neurodivergent people experience a very specific kind of ableism, or how female queer people or lesbians experience a specific kind of homophobia? How is this oppression Olympics

5

Anonymous OP 5w

Wdym? Its conditions that only effect people who have uterus’s. Those outside of that criteria can be advocates but should listen to people who are going through it. And people who have uteruses and go through the healthcare system where we are systematically ignored deserve to have spaces to discuss it. Just like how plus sized people have their own spaces especially dedicated to their healthcare where smaller people are allowed to support and lend and ear but aren’t allowed in reserved spaces

13

Anonymous OP 5w

I am gonna mute this now not bc of you in particular but bc I think the point has gotten so far diluted that we are arguing basically in agreement and I think my original quote was the most succinct and best way I could put things. No 2 women inherently have the same issues, regardless if they are both cis, both trans, or cis and trans, so it’s not logical to exclude people from spaces on the basis of assigned sex. That is what I believe.

5

Anonymous #9 5w

Trans women can have uteruses??? Why specifically do you need a uterus to have certain conversations? Nothings stopping you from having a conversation about periods in a space for ppl affected by them, but trans people can be affected by em. You can define spaces off of symptoms/experiences but sex/presentation =/= same experiences

-3

Anonymous #1 5w

Genuinely how can trans women have uteruses

12

Anonymous #1 5w

omg no they don’t you live in a fairytale there’s no sense in even conversing about it. if you have a uterus you’re a female. aka not a fucking trans woman.

12

Anonymous #1 5w

No they can’t? They can have an artificial vagina. They can have false periods created by hormone therapy.

13

Anonymous #2 5w

I could think maybe is someone was born intersex and they had the parts cut off as a baby to have female presenting organs but grow up having high T levels and appear more masculine? But then again that covers like a very small percentage and they would be allowed into female healthcare discussions considering they have a uterus.

6

Anonymous #5 5w

And for me, for example - I have endometriosis. It makes having a baby incredibly difficult. I would not want to discuss that with a trans woman because there is no point. She can comfort me for it, but she cannot understand what that feels like.

21

Anonymous #1 5w

Yes but some women are seeking like an actual group, like my mom joined a facebook group for women who had hysterectomies. And there’s another for endemitriosis. Two problems that only people who are AFAB experience.

1

Anonymous #5 5w

That’s exactly what I was trying to say! Like be a shoulder!

1

Anonymous #9 5w

In a space where I was discussing something like that though, I would not choose to discuss it with a trans woman. If she is my close friend and happens to know about it, great. But otherwise, I would not come to her for support

3

Anonymous #5 5w

Totally agreeing with you here as a PCOS girlie. To no fault of her own, she inherently cannot understand having a similar struggle, which I can see deterring people from wanting to have these discussions (personally I’ll shout about my PCOS struggles from the rooftops but I totally understand wanting a more dedicated space for it)

1

Anonymous #5 5w

But like you also wouldn’t want to have that conversation with someone who’s had a vasectomy bc they currently don’t have a uterus? I’m just confused on why we’re specifically excluding trans women when we could just have the conversation with a specific group of people-

7

Anonymous #11 5w

then those can be “groups for people with pcos”. not all cis women have pcos. so it’s weird to make it a cis women vs trans women thing when you could just potentially have a support group for the specific issue you want to talk about.

12

Anonymous #1 5w

I wouldn’t want to have that conversation with someone who has never had a real period, that’s all

5

Anonymous #7 5w

Also!!! There are trans men with pcos!! There are enbies with pcos!! There’s so many people you could be having this convo with, that won’t join this group bc of this label

11

Anonymous #1 5w

We’re excluding anyone from it if they don’t have a uterus, the topic was when would it be appropriate for trans women to be excluded from spaces where AFAB people would be. Don’t take it into a different territory

-1

Anonymous #5 5w

Valid, but not all people under the group have had a period, just like how not all ppl outside ur group HAVENT had one

1

Anonymous OP 5w

fair enough and thank you (i’m still gonna respond for the sake of others on this thread). i still think it’s untrue to say all trans women face the exact same issues as cis women in stem because young girls are treated so differently in childhood. being in male dominated fields as a young girl (including trans women who started transitioning in childhood btw) has a lasting impact into adulthood. someone who is now perceived as a woman now but was not perceived as a girl in that situation (1/2)

11

Anonymous #1 5w

Also “someone w a vasectomy” you mean someone with male genitalia? So, that includes a large number of trans women

1

Anonymous #9 5w

Sorry, *hysterectomy, mixed up the words thete

1

Anonymous #1 5w

Not all AFAB women have had a period. But you have to be AFAB or intersex to have a period.

7

Anonymous #5 5w

Not everyone wants to out themselves as afab to participate in these discussions- I’m just saying if u want to actually have these conversations, you’d be inclusive to everyone who CAN have these conversations, not just excluding a bunch of ppl bc you want cis girls

1

Anonymous #1 5w

Women have hysterectomy bc of problems like endemitriosis and PCOS also cancer. Because hysterectomies are a common treatment due to lack of research in women’s healthcare

1

Anonymous OP 5w

does not experience the same challenges. so i feel iffy about someone like that—ie who was treated as a “boy” in science, math, etc. throughout their childhood—being in “women in science/math/etc” spaces when they did have that privilege for a long time, even if they dont have it now. and i dont think the solution is exclusion i just think people need to be mindful and acknowledge when it’s not their turn to speak. (2/2)

8

Anonymous #7 5w

No I fully agree. But I think the same idea can be generalized to an other topics that cis women can be wary to talk about with others who most likely don’t have that experience or physically cannot. Again I personally don’t care, but I think it’s important to acknowledge that people have different comfort levels and as long as they’re not being malicious, it’s okay to have a “boundary”

1

Anonymous #10 5w

Do you need a set amount of time to have experienced discrimination to be able to be in a group around the discrimination?

-1

Anonymous #1 5w

nope. that’s not what i’m saying and i think i’ve made that pretty clear so unless you have a specific question i don’t feel the need to clarify.

6

Anonymous OP 5w

i disagree. socialization means being treated and raised to behave in a certain way, not just “growing up as a boy”. and while it’s def not as binary as being socialized male or socialized female, if you’re assigned male at birth you experience some aspects of male socialization, and vice versa if you’re afab. every person has a unique experience and some people are treated and socialized in a very male way while others are not.

1

Anonymous #10 5w

I’m cis afab and have experienced a lot of male socialization bc I’m a black woman, does this magically not make me able to relate to other women??? Ofc not???

5

Anonymous #1 5w

i never said it means you can’t relate to other women, and i think people on this thread just do not understand what socialization means. male socialization is not masculinization.

-2

Anonymous #2 5w

I’m a trans woman on hormones, I think there’s another layer to this. There’s trans women who are just like cis women and transitioned/actively transitioning. I think no one actually has a problem with them. But then there’s the “pre-everything” or “I call myself trans but I also totally look like a man and also don’t want to do anything” so-called “trans” people who force themselves into women’s spaces, and THAT makes people uncomfortable. But they’re unfairly conflated.

4

Anonymous #11 5w

Have you ever talked to a trans woman in real life? Because none of them will be uncomfortable talking about these things around them

5

Anonymous #2 5w

Idk why ur being downvoted for this

0

Anonymous #10 5w

I mean yeah but people transition partly as a rejection of that socialization and the expectations forced on them

1

Anonymous #8 5w

you should write fanfiction, you have very extensive headcanons and a great imagination! but maybe don’t talk about real issues you clearly know nothing about :(

1

Anonymous #14 5w

and who are you? I advise you to find something safe to do

1

Anonymous #8 5w

you sound high

1

Anonymous #8 5w

I’m a black woman who suffers misogynoir and endorse OP 😭 and yall were just telling me to shut up and sit down earlier, ur just intolerant 😭

5

Anonymous #14 5w

you clearly just want to see yourself talk. CHOPP

1

Anonymous #8 5w

do you start meaningless arguments in your free time for fun or is this just the way you are because either way I feel bad for you

6

Anonymous #14 5w

chop ho

1

Anonymous #8 5w

you’ve stopped being entertaining so I’m putting you down 💔 have fun on my block list

3

Anonymous #14 5w

okay i think maybe people arent understanding. i’m saying if you’re treated as a boy for the first x years of your life, that has a lasting impact into adulthood. that’s what i mean by male socialization. not every trans woman experiences that, but some do by virtue of when and how they transition.

1