Anonymous #6 8w

Women die at war as well?

7

Anonymous #7 8w

All throughout history?

0

Anonymous #7 8w

Do women get drafted?

10

Anonymous #5 8w

Just down voting instead of giving me one is proving you’re the problem

16

Anonymous #7 8w

Usually in better conditions I rather die at home than a guy finding me shitting and throwing a grenade up my ahh

0

Anonymous #5 8w

No, but they are fundamentally valued less under the patriarchy. Men and women are both hurt though, men are made to think simultaneously that they are entitled to women and to success along with being made disposable sources of labor and soldiers. Women are thought of as weaker and therefore aren’t put in those particular types of violent and dangerous positions, but they’re also made to think they are only as valuable as their ability to appeal to men and bear children. Additionally, this-

10

Anonymous #10 8w

-stance that women are weaker is fundamentally rooted in a desire to control women. If they think they’re only capable of rearing children and homemaking, they’re less likely to resist the systems in place against them. Basically what I’m trying to say is that the patriarchy hurts everyone. However, women are hurt more. Men’s pain is valid and needs to be seriously addressed more, but women’s pain and oppression goes deeper

10

Anonymous #10 8w

Maybe but biologically they are weaker

1

Anonymous #9 8w

What relevance does that have? Women are perfectly capable of being trained to be combat ready. Other than that, physical strength has no bearing on their value

9

Anonymous #10 8w

Are women hurt more when they do the oil rigging, underwater welding, electrical line work, sewage, firefighting, police work, and more? Oh that’s right those jobs have a majority of men in them

4

Anonymous #10 8w

Yes women can be combat trained but in terms of war wouldn’t you want to use the best kind of soldier you can? The strongest? The fastest?

3

Anonymous #6 8w

Men are in those fields more than women because it’s been made hostile for women??

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Anonymous #6 8w

We’re not talking about the marines, we’re talking about the military in general. They don’t need people at the peak level of fitness, they need them just fit and obedient enough to be capable of carrying out orders

6

Anonymous #5 8w

81% women have been a victim of sexual assault whereas 43% of men have. Women have had the right to vote for just over a century. Women have been able to have an independent bank account for just over half a decade. It’s a real risk that a woman turning down a man could result in her being assaulted or even killed, this risk is not present for men, at least not anywhere even remotely close to how it is for women. I could keep going

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Anonymous #10 8w

*for just over half a century

4

Anonymous #10 8w

That is the biggest load of crap haha it’s because women don’t want to do those jobs! The top 10 jobs for women have not changed for over 50 years.

4

Anonymous #10 8w

I’m not talking about marines either. I’m talking about from a purely warfare way of thinking to have the best chance at victory you would think to use the strongest and the fastest

1

Anonymous #11 8w

Plus men don’t have the opportunity to just marry rich and have a side business

5

Anonymous #6 8w

Yes, they don’t want to because of the men there. Misogyny goes unchecked and festers in those workplaces, of course a woman wouldn’t want to work somewhere where she’s more likely to be sexually harassed daily, sexually assaulted, and just not looked at as equal for no valid reason.

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Anonymous #10 8w

Love how don’t even acknowledge the fact that it’s work women don’t want to do. So let’s say in a hypothetical scenario, oil rigging for example, there’s one that is only allowed to hire women. Can you say with absolute certainty that women would apply and would be able to do that job for a significant amount of time?

-1

Anonymous #6 8w

Men are not always the strongest and fastest. There are many women that are just stronger than men even though it’s not the norm statistically, even without training. And regardless, not every man is suitable for the military, regardless of their testosterone, they’re not automatically “the best” soldiers

8

Anonymous #9 8w

Like it’s not even an insult it’s just biological fact

4

Anonymous #6 8w

Initially, probably not. The patriarchy has a real influence in making many women never even consider those types of jobs because they think they can’t, which then leads to many going down different paths that they end up liking. For the rest, that hostile, misogynistic environment does the rest at making most women hesitate or quit early. Once there’s been time for it to be normalized in this hypothetical scenario, absolutely plenty of women would join. Dangerous jobs like that pay-

1

Anonymous #10 8w

My bad. On average men are typically the strongest and the fastest. Also no rebuttal for my last point?

0

Anonymous #10 8w

-exceptionally well due to how dangerous they are, if they think they can do it, they haven’t discarded the possibility early, and are willing to take the risk, why not?

1

Anonymous #6 8w

Your best chance at victory is enlisting people who can become good soldiers. Olympians are at peak physical fitness, but they would not all make good soldiers. Statistical biological advantage has little relevance

5

Anonymous #10 8w

I literally said in this hypothetical scenario it would be an only female oil rig. Literally everyone. Only women. How does it somehow still come back to it being the patriarchy and men. It would literally be only women

0

Anonymous #6 8w

The patriarchy affects women even before they’re born (people being disappointed they’ll be having a girl instead of a boy or even getting them aborted sometimes just for being a girl), why do you think it wouldn’t affect this hypothetical oil rig scenario? You said the oil rig would only hire women, not that it would eliminate the patriarchy and all of the negative effects it’s had

8

Anonymous #10 8w

I’m talking like baseball throughout history. No Olympics yet. Nothing like that. Just like Roman Empire for example.

1

Anonymous #6 8w

I’m sorry, we have two different but related conversations going on, what is this in response to?

1

Anonymous #10 8w

Sorry autocorrect. Meant base standard warfare

1

Anonymous #10 8w

Just cause I’m curious and it will help me. Can you give me 2 criticisms of women? Without it wrapping back to patriarchy or men’s fault

1

Anonymous #6 8w

I think you misunderstood me, my point in bringing up olympians and how they wouldn’t all make good soldiers was to say that physical fitness is not the only factor in making a good soldier

1

Anonymous #6 8w

I can’t because women aren’t a hive mind

1

Anonymous #10 8w

To clarify, because women aren’t a hive mind, I can’t make a criticism towards all women. Every woman is an individual and so I can’t make a generalized criticism towards all women, just like I can’t make a generalized criticism towards all men. I can criticize the systems in place that benefit different groups though

5

Anonymous #10 8w

Yep ok so that answers what I was thinking. There’s no point in continuing. You’re most likely a misandrist

-3

Anonymous #6 8w

Why do you think I’m a misandrist?

4

Anonymous #10 8w

To be clear, I’m not. I used to have some internalized misandry that I had to work through in order to realize I’m a trans guy. Misandry does nothing but sow further hatred and division between men and women

5

Anonymous #10 8w

It comes from a valid place of an oppressed group fighting against their oppressors, but it’s purely destructive

3

Anonymous #10 8w

You can’t even give a criticism about your own sex. Yes every woman, man, person in general are not a hive mind and are unique. I can still give criticism of my own sex. Easily can think of some. You can’t even name one. And if you did it would still somehow wrap back to men or the patriarchy. Women are infallible apparently. So there’s no point. Have a good day

-2

Anonymous #6 8w

What’s your criticism of men? We might be misunderstanding each other

1

Anonymous #10 8w

Nope I’m good already said have a good day

0

Anonymous #6 8w

The one time I genuinely try to have a conversation with one of these fuckers

17

Anonymous #10 8w

Point proven

-1

Anonymous #10 8w

Also since I wasn’t able to respond to my own comment for some reason, this was the point in the conversation I posted this

1

Anonymous #5 8w

yeah i came across a post with several people sharing their experiences having been sexually harassed and even brutalized by boys when they were younger, which is in and of itself awful, but what made it more horrific were the adults in their lives not believing them when they reported what was happening, or doing little to nothing about it upon finding out

9

Anonymous OP 8w

not only is the experience in and of itself violating but it teaches/reinforces to girls and women that when things happen to them, they won’t be believed, or nothing will be done about it, the perpetrator won’t be held accountable. that in some cases they’ll be the ones to face consequences, rather than the person who assaulted them in the first place

6

Anonymous OP 8w

this is one particular example but absolutely i could give you many more ways we mistreat women in this world.

8

Anonymous #5 8w

i mean lowkey unless you live under a rock idk how something like epstein isn’t an immediate example that comes to mind. people are downvoting because your question appears disingenuous given how well known some of this stuff is really

7

Anonymous #9 8w

? who’s stopping them

15

Anonymous #6 8w

those same men often brutally rape and kill the women at the places they’re sent to.

11

Anonymous OP 8w

All of them? Interesting didn’t know

-3

Anonymous #6 8w

oh okay so because it’s not every single soldier raping and killing every single woman and child it’s okay. my bad og i didn’t think of that

10

Anonymous OP 8w

i mean by your logic i should just disregard your point entirely because it’s definitely not every man being drafted to war and sent to die and certainly not all of them are dying

15

Anonymous OP 8w

The draft hasn’t even been a thing for 50 years so the whole dying in war point is kinda invalid

14

Anonymous OP 8w

Again no point have a good day. Always gonna be men’s fault. Whatever

-2

Anonymous #2 8w

Men are required by law to sign up for the draft. Just because a draft hasn’t happened in a while doesn’t mean it’s not a thing. Use some smarts

-1

Anonymous #6 8w

i mean i don’t really know what you want me to say. i’m not the one trying to downplay the suffering of men YOU came here trying to make a comparison using an example that does in fact result in the suffering of both men and women, with the intent to downplay the suffering of women. so i simply set the record straight

6

Anonymous OP 8w

and in this case i especially don’t know what you want me to say because is it not often times men sending other men to go rape and kill and be maimed and die in war? is it not the guise of being this ultimate patriarchal masculine figure that they use to help propagandize men into going to war in the first place?

14

Anonymous OP 8w

I’m not trying to downplay any suffering I’m saying men suffer too. It’s not a competition. Seems like everything has to be a competition of well we suffered more no we suffered more

-1

Anonymous #6 8w

where in my original post did i say that women and girls suffer more?

6

Anonymous OP 8w

i mean if you ask me i think its different types of suffering men and women experience under the same system but said system is put in place to benefit men the most and punish women, render them (and any man who doesn’t fit the mold, often because they are unmasculine/feminine) basically second clsss citizens

9

Anonymous OP 8w

it’s often also men who willingly keep upholding said system and so then it becomes a bit difficult to hold a lot of sympathy for them even if i recognize they’re also suffering y’know. so even with the war example, the draft is one thing, but there are many men who perfectly willingly go to war, right?

6

Anonymous OP 8w

even if i would say that they’re sort of brainwashed into it more than anything else, it is harder to feel bad for someone who willingly signs himself up for something like that, knowing full well the consequences it will bring not just to himself but to other people

3

Anonymous OP 8w

but there is no woman or child in a warring nation who signs up up to be raped or killed by foreign soldiers…they just end up being considered unfortunate collateral, dehumanized entirely against their own volition just by virtue of being women and children. so even if everyone involved is suffering in some way its easier to sympathize with one party over the other y’know.

8

Anonymous OP 8w

I already said I was done with one debate where it’s always the man’s fault or patriarchy I don’t want to start another one. Fine you win. Women suffer more. Men are deplorable and we should all be killed. Have a good day

-1

Anonymous #6 8w

This is crazy

8

Anonymous #6 8w

your words not mine 🤷🏾

8

Anonymous OP 8w

absolutely crashing out meanwhile i’ve been about as magnanimous as i think is warranted by the conversation. i’ve said several times men suffer too and it’s not enough. i could say yes women uphold patriarchy too, which makes them suffer more as well, and it wouldn’t be enough. i really don’t know what you want me to say because i’m not going to sit here and lie to validate whatever feelings you have on this topic lol

8

Anonymous OP 8w

i don’t know what you think is fucking us all over but clearly we’re not on the same page there and you are upset about it, or feel as if i am personally blaming you. i am not blaming you personally, i don’t know you. as far as i know you’re just as culpable as i am or anyone else is regardless of gender. well, your comments clearly demonstrate you need to do a little more unpacking than i do perhaps LOL…

1

Anonymous OP 8w

I’m a guy and you’re right, idk why 6 is so mad

1

Anonymous OP 8w

Name me a criticism about women that doesn’t wrap back around to the patriarchy or it somehow being men’s fault. Like a genuine criticism

0

Anonymous #2 8w

Not mad just telling OP what they want to hear

-1

Anonymous #6 8w

i don’t have any because i can’t think of a harmful behavior that women overall exhibit that has nothing to do with patriarchy. that is in part because we are All born into a patriarchal system by default. i’d have to be able to observe women in an environment that is completely free of patriarchy, or women who are immune to societal influence, which is impossible.

8

Anonymous OP 8w

that isn’t to say that women do not individually exhibit bad behavior that in many cases might. or have to do with patriarchy and is just their personality or something. but whatever that behavior is, i don’t know if i’d be able to generalize it outward

6

Anonymous OP 8w

and even for those behaviors that women display that are influenced by the society we live in, i wouldn’t say that they’re exempt from any responsibility to acknowledge and change that behavior. in fact i’d say they ought to know better in some cases than to treat others the way they themselves are treated because of similar underlying reasons.

4

Anonymous OP 8w

but genuinely, give me an example of some general behavior that women exhibit, and let’s see if we can try to think about where said behavior stems from—whether it’s some kind of organic thing or not.

4

Anonymous OP 8w

might not* lol

1

Anonymous OP 8w

like you know off the top of my head i do think about women who are homophobic and shame men who are more feminine. i think this is bad and they shouldn’t do that, and they should learn to Not be homophobic and be more accepting of men who aren’t traditionally masculine. if a woman says some dumb shit like this to me i’m not gonna turn to the nearest man and say “it’s your fault she’s like this” cause that’s fucking stupid obviously

8

Anonymous OP 8w

Women give more false SA reports compared to men. Men who give SA reports are laughed at or not taken seriously as opposed to almost all women who report SA are taken seriously. Women get preferential treatment in regard to divorce and child custody and alimony cases. Even if the woman cheats in the divorce she still gets 50% even if there is a prenup involved. All debt that is the wife’s gets transferred to the husband in marriage. To name a few but I already know what you are gonna say

0

Anonymous OP 8w

but sorry, at the root of homophobia is hatred/disgust of what is considered to be feminine and a fear of the disruption of how things are “supposed” to be to keep men in power and keep the world “orderly.” men aren’t supposed to be feminine, they aren’t supposed to be in the role of receiver, they are supposed to be masculine, givers, dominant. for a man to willingly embrace femininity is to upset the “natural order.” these are ancient ideas, which men created

1

Anonymous OP 8w

https://youtu.be/dFzx0b5bcxU?is=DcnqgvnWEraFCyww

1

Anonymous OP 8w

great video discussing this topic and the history behind it

5

Anonymous #6 8w

i actually agree with you without even looking that stat up that women are probably giving false SA reports than men are, because women are somewhat more often encouraged to report when they’ve been sexually assaulted, period, whereas men aren’t encouraged as much/as often and in general, for the entire population regardless of gender, people have a hard time identifying if/when they’ve have been SAd for many reasons

5

Anonymous OP 8w

but yes i have to caveat that with first of all, the issue of women giving false reports is overblown precisely to discourage women from speaking out against their abusers/to discredit them from the start. and second of all people don’t take male victims as seriously…because of patriarchy/misogyny. sorry. it actually ties back into the homophobia point i was making.

6

Anonymous OP 8w

mind you i think this is genuinely unfortunate and i wish it wasn’t the case. i just saw people memeing on terry crews for opening up about his porn addiction and i couldn’t help but wonder if he struggled that much because of the sexual assault he had experienced, which i do distinctly remember a lot of people didn’t take seriously at all. it’s sad

5

Anonymous OP 8w

Yeah we totally created that. Not like it’s wired in our DNA or anything. Not like women are naturally more stronger. Made better hunters and protectors. Not like women are better as gatherers and caregivers. Men as cave people immediately went ooog oog ooooga and created these systems

0

Anonymous OP 8w

See wrapped back around to it being men and the patriarchy. Always does

0

Anonymous OP 8w

but why weren’t people taking him seriously? well it’s because he’s a big black man, and people have this idea that as a man, especially as a black man (because black men are dehumanized/perceived as superhuman in some ways), it should be impossible for him to be victimized at all. because he is big and strong and masculine it shouldn’t be possible for him to end up in that position at all. but he did, because he’s human, and susceptible to the same pressures as the rest of us

4

Anonymous OP 8w

so they either disregard him entirely or say that he’s been made more FEMININE, for falling victim to a crime/act that we tend to think is reserved only for women. that is just how it is and i’m sorry it is so and i want it to change but that IS what it is right now. it is both men and women that perpetuate these ideas, as i said. but the root cause is patriarchal ideas overall.

5

Anonymous OP 8w

Again always the patriarchy. Any thoughts on the point I made

0

Anonymous #6 8w

any thoughts on the points *I* made first. you brought up the SA stats and how men aren’t taken as seriously, i addressed that one. you’ve not said anything back except “of course you’d say that” alright do you want to refute what i’ve said? do you have any actual basis for thinking that what i’ve said is wrong?

4

Anonymous OP 8w

like if it’s not patriarchy what is it instead. with the terry crews example i’m even bringing up racism and how it ties into that. what did i say that’s wrong there and why am i wrong?

7

Anonymous #6 8w

also like, sorry if i’m misunderstanding what you’re saying here, correct me if i’m wrong. but are you saying here that it’s wired into our DNA that women are inherently better caregivers? because if you did, you just demonstrated why women receive preferential treatment in terms of divorce, child custody, and alimony cases…

4

Anonymous OP 8w

Yeah and should the law be biased based on sex? No. It’s supposed to be black and white. Right and wrong. My point was a rebuttal to that this “system” was created by men is ancient history. So no it wasn’t. Maybe at some point in like more higher intelligent civilizations yes. Men also could’ve caged up all women and use them as sex slaves and birthing machines. Yet men don’t. Let’s hear how that relates back to the patriarchy and it being men’s fault somehow.

1

Anonymous OP 8w

Yeah it’s terrible and another social society thing that is dumb.

1

Anonymous #6 8w

men…did…and still do…use women as sex slaves…and birthing machines…yes in more developed nations this isn’t as much of an issue especially what with the development of birth control here in the US (which is what i know most about) but the idea that women weren’t being exchanged between men like trading cards at a point in our history, even somewhat more “recently,” is just kind of absurd. i mean do you want to get into the atrocities of slavery in the US? around the world, really?

1

Anonymous #6 8w

i also am not fully understanding what you’re saying here about the idea that this system not being developed by men. yes obviously we didn’t spawn in here with patriarchy, it had to be invented. but it was invented a good long while ago hence why i said ancient history. are you saying like, the epic of gilgamesh isn’t ancient? you’ll see some of these ideas even in there, as early as then lol

-1

Anonymous OP 8w

I’m saying if every man in the world collectively wanted to round up all women and do that men most likely could. Yet men don’t. Yes because we have laws in place for most civilizations and cause that would be crazy. No I’m mot trying to pivot to that like you most likely are

1

Anonymous #6 8w

but i do agree that the law shouldn’t be biased based on sex. or race or class or anything else. but it is unfortunately biased. you’re not telling me why it is biased the way it is you’re just saying that it is and it shouldn’t be. this conversation is about the “why” is it not?

6

Anonymous #6 8w

okay i still don’t get what this has to do with anything being discussed before. genuinely i’m not trying to be obtuse. the conversation so far has been about whether the behaviors and the things that harm men and women have their roots in patriarchy or not and whether or not men invented that patriarchy, but now you’re bringing up how men could mass enslave women if they wanted to but don’t?¿ i don’t see the relation

6

Anonymous OP 8w

like i really could jump the gun on how insane it is for you to be trying to make the point i feel you might be making, but i am really truly trying to give you some benefit of the doubt and understand where you’re coming from with this

4

Anonymous OP 8w

I bring that up because most men are inherently good. There are just some bad people in the work both men and women. It just seems like the current thing now is to blame men and the patriarchy whenever there is a criticism about women and that it has to be a competition of we suffered more than you. How about we just agree both sexes have suffered in different ways and move forward together

1

Anonymous #6 8w

yep, it was about as insane as i thought. men decide not to mass enslave women, therefore that makes most of them good? i’m sorry, i don’t think it makes anyone inherently good to merely abstain from doing something bad—you have to actually do good actions, in my opinion. and the bar you are setting to be cleared is in the absolute pits of hell—yes like that, of course everyone is good. oh i didn’t choose to take advantage of someone today, so i should be clapped on the back for it. really?

4

Anonymous OP 8w

i do agree that there are bad people of both genders in this world and i have never said that wasn’t the case. and i have myself said that both men and women suffer under this system in different ways, albeit yes, i’ve made certain caveats. again it is YOU who are trying and failing to prove otherwise?

3

Anonymous OP 8w

i feel as if the miscommunication happening here is that you are taking me attributing certain actions/behaviors/beliefs being the fault of patriarchy as me individually and personally blaming all men who live today as being the inventors of that patriarchy and as being entirely responsible for its impacts, and that women are never responsible for their actions. i’m not saying that and i never have and i never will.

5

Anonymous OP 8w

i said earlier that i don’t know YOU personally i don’t know in what precise ways you are rejecting or embracing that system besides what you’ve demonstrated in this conversation, just the way you don’t know how i reject or embrace that system in my day to day life. i even said earlier if a woman behaved in a certain way i would not turn to the nearest man and blame him for her behavior. she’d need to own and fix that shit. that’s how this all works.

5

Anonymous OP 8w

but if and when we are actually trying to discuss broader patterns of behavior and ask ourselves WHY people do things they do, where their ideas and beliefs come from, and how those very ideas and beliefs came to be in the first place, then we have to look at things through a psychological, historical, sociological lens. and that’s why we keep landing back at patriarchy. not INDIVIDUAL MEN. the SYSTEM of PATRIARCHY. that we are ALL part of. okay?

5

Anonymous OP 8w

Ok then why do most matriarch systems fail? Cause there aren’t many now

1

Anonymous #6 8w

i don’t know enough matriarchal systems to discuss this and i’ve never argued for one 🤷🏾 but for the sake of the argument even if it’s the case that matriarchal systems tend to fail, does that mean we have to take on a patriarchal system? does that mean we have to continue being content with a system that hurts men and women both so much? why not strive for something more egalitarian?

4

Anonymous OP 8w

if you ask me there are “feminine” ways of being and “masculine” ways of being, things that are encouraged in each gender, that everyone no matter their gender should adopt OR reject in their behavior which i think would benefit everyone in society at large…from pettier things like dressing expectations to things of more consequence like leadership styles…

4